Reply to: Meja studies anyone?

[eek]

The massive increase in university admissions began in 1989 - under a Conservative government. The introduction of student loans was the start of the process.

Surprisingly it seems to have been before 1989 based on what I see in http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN04252/SN04252.pdf

I doubt it was 1989 as I had very little problem getting into my Russell Group uni in 1990 and there wasn't much new accommodation being built then. The big rush to build started in my 3rd year...

[eek]

That plan has been financially very hard hitting for some as not all Uni's are not considered equal by certain employers. Some short-sighted/misguided employers say:

"Russell group universities - The list of 'proper' Universities which existed in 1985
All other so called universities are ex Polytechnics, technical colleges, further education colleges etc.
If that candidate didn't go to a Russell group University bin the application."

Given that I was in the wrong place I was at the launch of the Russell Group. There are a number of top tier always Unis who still aren't members of it....

[unixman]

Dyson proclaims himself to be the best British Engineer now...

Proclaims himself to be the best engineer ? Surely not. I Googled and couldn't find any such claim.

[minestrone]

If you are paying £5.50 an hour, your not really gonna be throwing £300 at a dyson are you

I wold think cleaners in most offices are charging 15-20 quid an hour, certainly domestic cleansers are charging 17 quid an hour If they are not going trough the books.

A henry is 100 quid, a dyson is 200.

They don't use dysons because dysons are tulipe. Housewives buy them, cleaners don't.

[NotAllThere]

The everyone goes to Uni plan of the last Labour Government ...

The massive increase in university admissions began in 1989 - under a Conservative government. The introduction of student loans was the start of the process.

[SimonMac]

There are hardly any jobs for Engineering grads, and what jobs there are really are low level "I need water flow into this system, I'm going to look up a catalogue and chose the pump size" stuff. The days of Brunel, Watt, Rankine, Kelvin and Stevenson are over.

Dyson proclaims himself to be the best British Engineer now, have you ever seen professional cleaner use a Dyson? They use henries.

If you are paying £5.50 an hour, your not really gonna be throwing £300 at a dyson are you

[minestrone]

There are hardly any jobs for Engineering grads, and what jobs there are really are low level "I need water flow into this system, I'm going to look up a catalogue and chose the pump size" stuff. The days of Brunel, Watt, Rankine, Kelvin and Stevenson are over.

Dyson proclaims himself to be the best British Engineer now, have you ever seen professional cleaner use a Dyson? They use henries.

[unixman]

We should probably ask ourselves how many physicists we need/will need in future, how many professional engineers, how many skilled apprentices, how many modern dance graduates and so on, and base policy on that. My own view (unresearched) is that we probably need more professional engineers, and fewer sociology based graduates. Pragmatism not snobbery.

[minestrone]

I don't know why everyone picks on Media Studies. My 5yr Mechanical BEng Hons was ultimately useless, I'm struggling to think of anyone I know other than Doctors and Nurses who followed through on a degree into a the career that they chose when they left school. Most of the teachers I know got such tulipty ordinaries and thirds they had to get a conversation course.

[TykeMerc]

I am not sure if I agree with the "everyone deserves to go to university" sentiment.

I'm absolutely sure that I don't agree with the sentiment. People should only go to University if they are suitably academically inclined and skilled, the University system shouldn't be a temporary dumping ground for youth unemployment.

My eldest son is graduated worked a few years and starting his PHd this year. My younger two are both in apprenticeships and even though they could have gone to Uni neither wanted to as they had no courses that appealed.

[SunnyInHades]

The everyone goes to Uni plan of the last Labour Government

That plan has been financially very hard hitting for some as not all Uni's are not considered equal by certain employers. Some short-sighted/misguided employers say:

"Russell group universities - The list of 'proper' Universities which existed in 1985
All other so called universities are ex Polytechnics, technical colleges, further education colleges etc.
If that candidate didn't go to a Russell group University bin the application."

[Zero Liability]

I am not sure if I agree with the "everyone deserves to go to university" sentiment.

University should be for the few, not the many, I wonder what the number os applications would be like if "real courses" (STEM etc) were free, subsidiesd by noddy courses (the arts, humanities, and social sciences etc)

Or just stop subsidising one at the expense of the other altogether.

If anything, I think trying to get everyone through uni is to the detriment of the ablest and/or most willing to put the effort required in. Trying to socially engineer outcomes, rather than let the degree's usefulness in career progression, determine their supply just creates sectoral skill imbalances. Granted, this is less useful in an interventionist economy, where some industries and consequently the remuneration they offer are themselves subsidised, but it'd be a start. I think STEM courses and maybe those pertaining to some of the professions would naturally come on top in such an environment.

Universities are quite willing to subsidise the brightest of their own accord, as it affects their quality and reputation, but not when everyone can get a taxpayer subsidised student loan; for most people, like eek said, an apprenticeship that comes with a qualification is probably best.

Besides, there's a plethora of online and modular courses people can do these days to refine their knowledge/skills.

Personally, I'm now looking to specialise and convert to a STEM area unrelated to my original degree, because it will offer better career progression.

[vetran]

Here's an idea. How about if entry requirements were made more rigorous and required the applicant to demonstrate a high level of academic achievement. This should reduce the numbers of entrants and enable the government to pay the students fees regardless of background. Then provide each student with a basic grant that whilst not a living wage can be topped up with part time work to allow a student to eat and rent basic accommodation whilst studying. Then we would have graduates that in large part are recognised as the best that our educational system can produce to the benefit of all our industries and research establishments.
Oh hang on a mo...

I'm quite happy for the student to support themselves, if they can't pay their way through UNI then they won't pay their way through life.

I would also make the uni debt payable immediately on emigration.

[alluvial]

Here's an idea. How about if entry requirements were made more rigorous and required the applicant to demonstrate a high level of academic achievement. This should reduce the numbers of entrants and enable the government to pay the students fees regardless of background. Then provide each student with a basic grant that whilst not a living wage can be topped up with part time work to allow a student to eat and rent basic accommodation whilst studying. Then we would have graduates that in large part are recognised as the best that our educational system can produce to the benefit of all our industries and research establishments.
Oh hang on a mo...

[SimonMac]

The everyone goes to Uni plan of the last Labour Government missed out the (as its a great way of hiding Youth unemployment and the lack of options)...

As I've said many times for many people an apprenticeship (especially one at our mutual ex-clientco) would be far far better than going to Uni....

That reminds me, what was this golden opportunity that stopped you going back there?