Reply to: Ukip: migrants full of tulip

[BlasterBates]

We are part of the EU that means we have reciprocal arrangements in terms of business and labour mobility with other EU countries. I am 100% in favour of the concept of offshoring to other parts of the EU. Member states should be competing with each other. I don't even have a problem with offshoring to India. I do however have a problem with "onshoring".

There you go I knew we agreed really

[DodgyAgent]

Obviously because we can get more done and remain competitive.

If we didn't then all the customers would move to other providers who can develop faster and introduce more functionality. If a government were to come in and introduce a law to prevent offshoring the company would obviously not be able to compete and close or move completely to a place where it could. Plenty of customers who threaten to close their account when they don't get what they want.

The company has actually grown it's onshore resources.

of course Eastern Europe itself becomes an increasingly lucrative market as their economies grow using "offshoring strategies", and therefore the company gets bigger as a result of growth in Eastern Europe.

One thing you will see happening is that these countries won't stay cheap, they'll get more expensive and provide more opportunities.

This idea that the economy is fixed sized cake that needs to be protected with resrticted practices is a very much a left wing idea.'that doesn't work. If it did most of us would be working down the mine with a pick and shovel. We would be living in small two up two downs with a small black and white TV and an Austin Princess in the drive.

We are part of the EU that means we have reciprocal arrangements in terms of business and labour mobility with other EU countries. I am 100% in favour of the concept of offshoring to other parts of the EU. Member states should be competing with each other. I don't even have a problem with offshoring to India. I do however have a problem with "onshoring".

[BlasterBates]

oh so software development has been offshored in your company to a low cost country and you are trying to present this as a good thing?

Obviously because we can get more done and remain competitive.

If we didn't then all the customers would move to other providers who can develop faster and introduce more functionality. If a government were to come in and introduce a law to prevent offshoring the company would obviously not be able to compete and close or move completely to a place where it could. Plenty of customers who threaten to close their account when they don't get what they want.

The company has actually grown it's onshore resources.

of course Eastern Europe itself becomes an increasingly lucrative market as their economies grow using "offshoring strategies", and therefore the company gets bigger as a result of growth in Eastern Europe.

One thing you will see happening is that these countries won't stay cheap, they'll get more expensive and provide more opportunities.

This idea that the economy is fixed sized cake that needs to be protected with resrticted practices is a very much a left wing idea.'that doesn't work. If it did most of us would be working down the mine with a pick and shovel. We would be living in small two up two downs with a small black and white TV and an Austin Princess in the drive.

[DodgyAgent]

Things are changing fast, in 2011 when that out of date report was produced there were no Eastern Europeans in the company I work in. That is a very recent development. Most of them are actually working in Romania and I think you'll find their Software industry is growing very rapidly indeed.

That may be so but only small numbers of high end skilled romanians are coming to the UK. Those that leave do not come to the UK . It is said that Romanian is the second language of microsoft in Seattle. If you look at Polish or romanian job boards Locuri de munca | BestJobs Locuri de munca - eJobs Locuri de munca in Romania pentru studenti, absolventi si tineri profesionisti, Angajatori de top. you will find very few high end skill jobs advertised for the UK

[vetran]

Things are changing fast, in 2011 when that out of date report was produced there were no Eastern Europeans in the company I work in. That is a very recent development. Most of them are actually working in Romania and I think you'll find their Software industry is growing very rapidly indeed.

oh so software development has been offshored in your company to a low cost country and you are trying to present this as a good thing?

[darmstadt]

Another out of date report: CES - Centre for Educational Sociology http://www.ces.ed.ac.uk/PDF%20Files/Brief047.pdf

 In localities with larger population of immigrants, the UK born population has higher chances of being economically inactive rather than working in low skilled occupations or being short-term unemployed.
 UK born workers are less likely to work in white collar occupations in localities where immigrants who arrived in the UK in 2004 or thereafter (i.e. ‘new immigrants’) make up a larger share of the whole immigrant population.
 Immigrant spatial concentrations do not affect the chances of non-immigrant population work in a higher status blue collar occupations.
 Immigrant spatial concentrations have different effect on the labour market outcomes of UK born and immigrants themselves.
 Immigrants who live in localities with large immigrant populations (both old and new immigrants) are less likely to work in white collar occupations.
 In localities with higher concentration of ethnic minorities, White UK population and immigrants are both more likely to work in white collar occupation.
 Ethnic minorities themselves as well as low skilled workers are less likely to work in white collar occupations in localities with a large presence of UK born ethnic minorities.
 In localities with a larger proportion of immigrants, UK born workers earn more but their wages are depressed in areas where ‘new’ immigrants make up a larger share of the immigrant population.
 The impact of immigration on wages is more negative for those UK born workers who have higher levels of qualifications than for those with lower qualifications.

[BlasterBates]

Either you are lying or that is one hell of an anecdote:

http://engine.is/wp-content/uploads/FINALEUTECH.pdf

it is quite surprising that actual
mobility within the EU is fairly low. In the two-year period up to 2012, among the more than 500
million inhabitants of the European Union, only 650,000 persons moved to work in another Member
State (no data was available for Belgium). This figure points to considerably subdued worker
mobility when compared to the two-year period up to 2008, just before the onset of the crisis. Back
then, approximately 900,000 economically active persons moved cross-border in order to work.
Labour mobility needs to increase by almost 40% in order to return to pre-crisis levels. Looking
at the total stock of EU citizens working in another Member State, this indicator amounted to 6.6
million in 2012, which equaled a mere 3% of the labour force (EU Comm 2013). European labour
mobility is also quite low when compared to large countries with a federal structure in other parts
of the world. For instance, the OECD has calculated that, in 2010, inter-regional mobility within
the EU-15 Member States averaged to 1% of the total population, and cross-border mobility to
0.35%. In contrast, the figures for the United States, Australia and Canada were 2.4, 1.5 and 1.0%,
respectively (OECD 2012). Comparisons between the United States and the EU-27 regarding interregional
mobility for the year 2008 yield a figure of 2.8% for the former and 1.03% for the latter More importantly however, when examining skills/occupation matches, a strong evidence of over-qualification
and the corresponding underutilisation of EU-10 migrant workers’ skills emerge as a pervasive
phenomenon
On the other hand, 86% of EU-8 and 95% of
EU-2 migrants have blue-collar jobs. The jobs-to-skills mismatch and thus the underutilisation of human
capital of EU-10 migrant workers which has been highlighted by our results points to one of the biggest
challenges with regard to recent intra-EU labour mobility. This phenomenon also points to a failure of
migration-related policies that could help to improve the efficiency of cross-border labour mobility.

the available data indicate that the education level of mobile EU citizens tends to be high (especially from the eight Eastern European Member States (EU-8) which joined in 2004) but that the majority are employed in low-skilled occupations


The idea that Polish engineers or IT specialists are moving to the UK is hogwash.

Things are changing fast, in 2011 when that out of date report was produced there were no Eastern Europeans in the company I work in. That is a very recent development. Most of them are actually working in Romania and I think you'll find their Software industry is growing very rapidly indeed.

[FatLazyContractor]

I am a twat remember.

FTFY

[SueEllen]

Then we need to deport the ones working in Starbucks and staff them with UK graduates.

problem sorted

Some of them are actually educated in the UK so count as UK graduates so the picture isn't as simple as people think.

[DodgyAgent]

Migrants in Britain a decade on: The Poles who brought prosperity - Home News - UK - The Independent



Personally I meet a lot of Eastern Europeans who work in banks, consultancies and media companies, one or two of them have PhD's. We've just recruited a Software Engineer from Bulgaria, great guy. Half of the team are now in Romania, but they actually work there. They're the "offshored resources" and then in the Irish office there are a few Eastern European Engineers.

So in my company alone at least 25% of the Engineering team is from Eastern Europe, which contradicts the idea that there are hardly any Engineers from Eastern Europe.

Funnily enough I haven't met any Eastern Europeans working at the tills in Starbucks or MacDonalds.

Either you are lying or that is one hell of an anecdote:

http://engine.is/wp-content/uploads/FINALEUTECH.pdf

it is quite surprising that actual
mobility within the EU is fairly low. In the two-year period up to 2012, among the more than 500
million inhabitants of the European Union, only 650,000 persons moved to work in another Member
State (no data was available for Belgium). This figure points to considerably subdued worker
mobility when compared to the two-year period up to 2008, just before the onset of the crisis. Back
then, approximately 900,000 economically active persons moved cross-border in order to work.
Labour mobility needs to increase by almost 40% in order to return to pre-crisis levels. Looking
at the total stock of EU citizens working in another Member State, this indicator amounted to 6.6
million in 2012, which equaled a mere 3% of the labour force (EU Comm 2013). European labour
mobility is also quite low when compared to large countries with a federal structure in other parts
of the world. For instance, the OECD has calculated that, in 2010, inter-regional mobility within
the EU-15 Member States averaged to 1% of the total population, and cross-border mobility to
0.35%. In contrast, the figures for the United States, Australia and Canada were 2.4, 1.5 and 1.0%,
respectively (OECD 2012). Comparisons between the United States and the EU-27 regarding interregional
mobility for the year 2008 yield a figure of 2.8% for the former and 1.03% for the latter More importantly however, when examining skills/occupation matches, a strong evidence of over-qualification
and the corresponding underutilisation of EU-10 migrant workers’ skills emerge as a pervasive
phenomenon
On the other hand, 86% of EU-8 and 95% of
EU-2 migrants have blue-collar jobs. The jobs-to-skills mismatch and thus the underutilisation of human
capital of EU-10 migrant workers which has been highlighted by our results points to one of the biggest
challenges with regard to recent intra-EU labour mobility. This phenomenon also points to a failure of
migration-related policies that could help to improve the efficiency of cross-border labour mobility.

the available data indicate that the education level of mobile EU citizens tends to be high (especially from the eight Eastern European Member States (EU-8) which joined in 2004) but that the majority are employed in low-skilled occupations


The idea that Polish engineers or IT specialists are moving to the UK is hogwash.

[BlasterBates]

I have.

I've met them working everywhere in highly skilled roles to cafes.

Then again if you have a degree in an arts subject regardless of what country you are from you are going to find it difficult to get a decent job.

That's true arts graduates working in Starbucks or MacDonalds.

[SueEllen]

Migrants in Britain a decade on: The Poles who brought prosperity - Home News - UK - The Independent



Personally I meet a lot of Eastern Europeans who work in banks, consultancies and media companies, one or two of them have PhD's. We've just recruited a Software Engineer from Bulgaria, great guy. Half of the team are now in Romania, but they actually work there. They're the "offshored resources" and then in the Irish office there are a few Eastern European Engineers.

So in my company alone at least 25% of the Engineering team is from Eastern Europe, which contradicts the idea that there are hardly any Engineers from Eastern Europe.

Funnily enough I haven't met any Eastern Europeans working at the tills in Starbucks or MacDonalds.

I have.

I've met them working everywhere in highly skilled roles to cafes.

Then again if you have a degree in an arts subject regardless of what country you are from you are going to find it difficult to get a decent job.

[BlasterBates]

Migrants in Britain a decade on: The Poles who brought prosperity - Home News - UK - The Independent

I know many Polish people who are working for big banks, universities, hedge funds and other reputable jobs,” Mr Szwed says. “But people just talk about Polish people being builders.”

Mr Szwed’s company, Best Foods, now supplies most of Britain’s major supermarkets, including Iceland, Morrisons and Asda with meat and vegetables for ready meals.

Personally I meet a lot of Eastern Europeans who work in banks, consultancies and media companies, one or two of them have PhD's. We've just recruited a Software Engineer from Bulgaria, great guy. Half of the team are now in Romania, but they actually work there. They're the "offshored resources" and then in the Irish office there are a few Eastern European Engineers.

So in my company alone at least 25% of the Engineering team is from Eastern Europe, which contradicts the idea that there are hardly any Engineers from Eastern Europe.

Funnily enough I haven't met any Eastern Europeans working at the tills in Starbucks or MacDonalds.

[DodgyAgent]

Typical rightie answer, can't be bothered and would rather someone else does the work for them

I am an agent remember.

[darmstadt]

I cannot be bothered. May I suggest that you look up skills mobility in the EU and I think you will find that "high end" skills mobility is very low.

Let us not forget EU open doors immigration benefits IT contractors more than anyone

Typical rightie answer, can't be bothered and would rather someone else does the work for them