Reply to: Offshore staff being shipped in to the UK

[MicrosoftBob]

I spend most of time working away from home, only once at clientco logging into remote servers to fix problems or working away from people when I'm coding to avoid distractions

It's stupid, but also means less scope for outsourcing

Sometimes client stupidity is a big win

[Avalonia]

Don't you support free trade?

Trade as in we get their cheap labour paid peanuts, and the consultancies get the profit.

[eek]

"their market" , really?

and what about their market, do we have access to it?
not a hope in hell.

their market as in the ones they market and sell to.....

[d000hg]

I am contracting for a big company in the UK (I won't say which). And they seem to be constantly bringing in staff from offshore. How do they get away with it? There is no shortage of British workers. Apologies if this has been asked/answered before.

Don't you support free trade?

[BrilloPad]

Yeah I heard about them too.

Anyway, why should a common currency area mean a common language?

For a common currency you need common sovereignty. Its possible with more than one language. But way better with one language.

We all speak American now so why not settle on that?

[Cr1spy]

I just will maintian the point that CIO's who see off shoring as a way of saving money are not in the right job..

I've been seeing this ^^ for about 15 years.

Upper IT management have a retention period of 2 - 3 years. So, swoop in, get ride of the in-house team, offshore, show a budget reduction in year 1 then off to the next position. Cha-ching.

I once spent a year training the offshore development team that had been purchased in place of my old in-house team. It mainly devolved into a line by line walk through of the source code.

[Mich the Tester]

I just will maintian the point that CIO's who see off shoring as a way of saving money are not in the right job..

I agree on that because it often costs a tulipload, largely because many companies have such procedural ways of working and crazy overheads that when you offshore stuff the costs just get even higher and flexibility decreases; also, the contracts that offshore dev outfits have to follow often encourage a cheapo shoddy job just to check the boxes in a deliverable list and don't encourage or reward top quality work. BUT, a modern, well run outfit with managers who look to raise quality by bringing in the right skills wherever they are is a different matter. Basically, too many companies have 21st century technology, young people who are accustomed to using it, and managers and politicians who are mentally stuck in the early days of the industrial revolution.

[original PM]

I think you´re in danger of missing the point about IT; -- snip

shared flexible office with other contractors, sometimes on the same project. It works, and I find it quite easy to manage people who are working at home or elsewhere.

just trolling a bit tbh - I agree about flexible working often do it myself and it is encouraged here in fact the new office we are in was built based on the fact that 20% of the work force will be off/working from home - if everyone turned up we would not all fit in!

People who think that good management is getting staff in at 9 and going home at 5 are dinosaurs.

I just will maintian the point that CIO's who see off shoring as a way of saving money are not in the right job..

[Mich the Tester]

We are all being undercut already.

Some firms' management are:
1. Xenophobic so don't want to hire off-shore/intra-company transfer resource, OR,
2. have learnt the hard way that cheap up front means a nightmare and expensive in the end.

The rates in testing and the requirements to get the gig are often related to the risks of the project. If the project risks losing lots of money for other people, like a banking project, the rates will be poo unless it's very specialised stuff with difficult maths. In industry, healthcare technology, emergency services, oil and so on, where people die when it goes wrong, many firms refer to hire a local, western professional (for some reason) .

[Mich the Tester]

from a logical perspective nothing it just seemed to hang together nicely.

anyway are you ready to be undercut?

I think you´re in danger of missing the point about IT; what we do isn't about location, but about knowledge. You can move the workers or you can move the work, or even do both. much of our work could be done anywhere that we have access to t'internet. The only thing that makes us valuable is our knowledge, and so the only way to carry on earning a bit more than somebody else is to keep you knowledge a bit stronger than somebody else's. It really doesn't matter much whether the knowledge comes from Britain, NL or a village in Botswana if it's the knowledge itself that customers are buying.

Now OK, some people, often managermen, are claiming that 'work from home' or 'flexible working' doesn't work all that well compared to having everyone on location; I would suggest that those are actually worn out 20th century managers who haven't figured out how to manage people who are working in different locations, and that their time is running out. OK, so I work mainly at clientco for this client, because this client has specialized machinery that I don't have at home, but with most clients I often work at home or in a shared flexible office with other contractors, sometimes on the same project. It works, and I find it quite easy to manage people who are working at home or elsewhere.

[SueEllen]

from a logical perspective nothing it just seemed to hang together nicely.

anyway are you ready to be undercut?

We are all being undercut already.

Some firms' management are:
1. Xenophobic so don't want to hire off-shore/intra-company transfer resource, OR,
2. have learnt the hard way that cheap up front means a nightmare and expensive in the end.

[Mich the Tester]

from a logical perspective nothing it just seemed to hang together nicely.

anyway are you ready to be undercut?

From a logical perspective it doesn´t hang together at all, because if it did then Canada, Switzerland and Belgium would be permanently fooked. Actually Belgium is a bit fooked, but it isn´t poor.

Am I ready to be undercut? If needs must, then yes, but I'd rather stay in the high end of the market where companies will pay for quality (or rather pay to avoid the enormous costs they face when the quality's poo).

[original PM]

Yeah I heard about them too.

Anyway, why should a common currency area mean a common language?

from a logical perspective nothing it just seemed to hang together nicely.

anyway are you ready to be undercut?

[vetran]

Yes - a common language like we have a common currency.....

Either that or the UK comes out of the EU and then lets see how happy the rest of Europe is with the cheap romanians coming in and stealing their jobs

I heard a few were great testers....

This seemed to be so true :

Quality De-Surance - The Daily WTF

[Mich the Tester]

Yes - a common language like we have a common currency.....

Either that or the UK comes out of the EU and then lets see how happy the rest of Europe is with the cheap romanians coming in and stealing their jobs

I heard a few were great testers....

Yeah I heard about them too.

Anyway, why should a common currency area mean a common language?