Reply to: Apparently there is a public sector strike going on...

[vetran]

The survey summary says "Firms want primary schools to focus on developing literacy and numeracy (85%)".

How many CBI respondents recruit directly from primary school?

How many school leavers can't read or write effectively?

oh quite a few

CBI: too many school leavers 'underequipped for life' | National Literacy Trust

oh look even the teachers (under Labour) thought they were doing a bad job

17% of school leavers 'functionally illiterate'

Although literacy in primary schools is a key focus, the emphasis can be lost in secondary schools, according to the study, which revealed that nearly one-fifth of 16 to 19-year-olds have a reading age at or below 11. This means their maths skills are limited to little more than basic arithmetic - putting the UK at a higher rate of innumeracy than many other industrialised countries.

In addition, 17% of 16- to 19-year-olds are functionallly illiterate, meaning they cannot handle much more than straightforward questions and would not understand allusion or irony.

The study found teenagers' average reading scores had risen between 1948 and 1960 and remained "remarkably constant" between 1960 and 1988. Between 1997 and 2004, scores had "gently" risen and then plateaued. But they discovered little improvement in teenagers' writing between 1979 and 2004.

So get it right in Primary schools and follow in Secondary.

[TheFaQQer]

Do they even care?

They are the customer they want a product that works, their survey suggests 85% of them think its doesn't or needs improving. Is it any wonder they are going to competitor?

The survey summary says "Firms want primary schools to focus on developing literacy and numeracy (85%)".

How many CBI respondents recruit directly from primary school?

[TheFaQQer]

85% want them to focus on these, this suggests that they believe its important and suggests they are not confident its good enough.

There is nothing in the report that you quote from which supports your assertion that the CBI survey "suggests 85% of them think its doesn't or needs improving."

If I'm reading the report wrong, which I concede I may well be, just post the page number and paragraph which suggests that 85% of CBI respondents say that they believe that primary schools are failing at teaching numeracy and literacy.

[Mich the Tester]

If they doubled it and gave out vouchers and placed the control in the hands of the consumer the savings in terms of crime, health and unemployment would be considerable.

But there's the issue; it depends on the consumer, and as I said, the private system has an advantage in that most parents are highly skilled, educated, motivated people who have put a lot of effort into bringing up their kids. A few see the boarding system as a means to outsource upbringing, but I think they're a minority among private school parents. I'm sure most state school parents do their best too, but some don't have the skills to do what my mum did, teaching me to read, or what my father did in making sure I stayed fit. A few also don't have the inclination to do that or the ambition to give their kids a good start, so the state school often has a harder job than the private school.

[vetran]

That's not what your post says. It says


It does NOT say that 85% think it doesn't meet their needs. It does NOT say that 85% think it needs improving.

1/3 are not satisfied, they believe it needs improving. If a third of your customers were not satisfied then you wouldn't sell much.

85%

satisfied
ˈsatɪsfʌɪd
adjective
contented; pleased.

They are not contented or pleased. They believe it needs improvement.

85% want them to focus on these, this suggests that they believe its important and suggests they are not confident its good enough.

[Mich the Tester]

I sort of agree that education should have more than a focus on just getting a job, however the people who are recruiting the school leavers are the Schools real customer. They want balanced and skilled people. They are saying they aren't getting that.

´Balanced´ is a bit vague, but I kind of understand from it that they want people with more skills than simply coding or counting or ´communicating´.

But this ´skills´ thing; what skills are we talking about? Business will always have to offer some kind of training to turn raw recruits into productive employees; I wonder whether some businesses are realistic in their expectations.

[vetran]

Some people do seem to believe that ejumakation is all about pleasing employers; I've said a few things about that in a longer and slightly unstructured post.

I sort of agree that education should have more than a focus on just getting a job, however the people who are recruiting the school leavers are the Schools real customer. They want balanced and skilled people. They are saying they aren't getting that.

We have all seen products that look beautiful that don't work, they lose out to products that just work even if they are ugly.

Dyson's first vacuum was very pretty, it worked better than many other vacuums but it had issues. He changed the design a number of times to carry on competing. However an ugly vacuum would probably replace it if it proves to out perform it and its cheaper.

[DodgyAgent]

10k won´t buy much in the private system though.

If they doubled it and gave out vouchers and placed the control in the hands of the consumer the savings in terms of crime, health and unemployment would be considerable.

[Mich the Tester]

And if any government should know the importance of spending £10k a year on each pupil, it's this one.

10k won´t buy much in the private system though.

[Mich the Tester]

The private school model works brilliantly

Parts of the model work brilliantly for many young people, yes. But not all of it. It could be used to provide pointers for improving state education, but you have to be careful with your expectations; one very important part of the model is the parents and the upbringing they give their kids. My mum started teaching me to read when I was about two and a half; I've heard education 'experts', or teachers saying 'impossible; a child's brain is not ready for that at age two'. My mum was a teacher by the way.

[TheFaQQer]

The private school model works brilliantly

And if any government should know the importance of spending £10k a year on each pupil, it's this one.

[TheFaQQer]

Do they even care?

They are the customer they want a product that works, their survey suggests 85% of them think its doesn't or needs improving. Is it any wonder they are going to competitor?

That's not what your post says. It says

Firms want primary schools to focus on developing literacy and numeracy (85%) with around one-third not satisfied with these skills among school leavers.

It does NOT say that 85% think it doesn't meet their needs. It does NOT say that 85% think it needs improving.

[DodgyAgent]

Well, I went to private schools and although I have some concerns about the boarding experience, I can certainly see that I gained some real advantages from the academic side of it, and the sporting and activities side of it. But were the teachers that I admire and who helped me along being measured all the time by some great state institution of measurers, inspectors and controllers? I don't think so; the schools ran on reputation, not state interference. There's an advantage; the good teachers were a mix of trained teachers, academics, athletes and artists; the schools had a lot more freedom than state schools in who they hired, so when one of my schools hired a head of PE and sports, they hired an ex olympic runner who had a deep theoretical and practical understanding of sport and a passion for his subject; however he didn't have a teaching qualification or a degree, which would be required in a state school. Some teachers were frankly clueless, or worse, downright strange in ugly ways, but did have teaching qualifications; I'm not suggesting that teaching qualifications are bad or good, but suggesting that a school where the governors and head know the kids, know the area where they work and the people they're serving are better placed to make many decisions than some central bureaucracy.

Also, employers should be careful about what they ask for when they criticise education. Employers want this, employers want that; understandable seeing as employers are likely to want maximum profit from minimal effort or investment. But do they really know what they need? Trouble is, education is not simply about gaining employment later in life. It's also about learning to take part in a society that is about much more than economics alone. I think there's a real danger in reforming education or setting up all sorts of measurements simply to satisfy employers; you get homo economicus, a sort of drone that is purely economically productive, and not someone who can play some important role in society. How about this; if young employees are literate, then they might well read books on how do do well in business, or how to code Java brilliantly; they might also read books on how to cause disruption, how to organise political protest, how to undermine authority. If they're good at maths and the sciences then they might also be good at punching great holes in the 'logic' of management in which many employers trust.

Employers are important stakeholders in education, but they aren't the only stakeholders and I'd even contend that they aren't the most important stakeholders in education.

The private school model works brilliantly

[Mich the Tester]

I think what the CBI wants is basic maths and decent english and high aspirations. If kids have got these they can do anything

Do they really want all kids to have high aspirations? What do they mean by high aspirations?

[Mich the Tester]

I would hope so - they are the experts on what schools should be teaching, after all.

Some people do seem to believe that ejumakation is all about pleasing employers; I've said a few things about that in a longer and slightly unstructured post.