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Previously on "CJRS - Discretionary 'Commsion'"

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  • NotAllThere
    replied
    Off topic posts moved to General.

    Leave a comment:


  • LiviHam
    replied
    andydd68 - NMW x 80% is approx. £245 take home per week, and is available until the end of June (not sure if this can still be backdated to 1st March or if this is already lost...). I think scope to cover any admin etc. and still come out well ahead of other benefits and without the hassle.

    Any contract detail can be amended subject to employment law and mutual agreement, so I believe there is no reason why the amount could not reflect actual UC liabilities.

    Leave a comment:


  • fidot
    replied
    According to your original post, the contract says "you may be entitled to commission" (my bolding), which perhaps gives the agency the wiggle room.

    Bear in mind, no company has to furlough staff, so I don't think there is anything you can do.

    Leave a comment:


  • andydd68
    replied
    Originally posted by LiviHam View Post
    Call me naive, but is there any reason why the UC cannot continue to charge a fee to cover their liabilities, i.e. apprenticeship levy, leave accrual (most of which comes back to the employee anyway) and administration?

    I know 100% of HMRC payment must go to the employee as pay, but any fee could be after this and may just be a modification of the terms in which we pay the UC fee already.

    I for one, would rather get something than nothing, even at NMW rates (though preferably my normal rate ).

    Whats in it for the UC? - goodwill and continuity...
    UCs charge a fee anyway to cover their admin, trouble is..its pretty low..sometimes £10 a week, guess they could raise it although whether they could do it mid-contract I dont know...I assume there is a mechanism for it to rise the same as most bills.

    Leave a comment:


  • LiviHam
    replied
    Originally posted by mrdonuts View Post
    is the real issue thats theres nothing in it for the umbrella, theyre doing work to process the furlough payment without gettinh their grubby mitts on any money
    Call me naive, but is there any reason why the UC cannot continue to charge a fee to cover their liabilities, i.e. apprenticeship levy, leave accrual (most of which comes back to the employee anyway) and administration?

    I know 100% of HMRC payment must go to the employee as pay, but any fee could be after this and may just be a modification of the terms in which we pay the UC fee already.

    I for one, would rather get something than nothing, even at NMW rates (though preferably my normal rate ).

    Whats in it for the UC? - goodwill and continuity...

    Leave a comment:


  • andydd68
    replied
    This again featured on Martin Lewis TV show last night (with reference to Umbrella Cos) but there seemed 2 competing points of view but with HMRC staying mysteriously silent.

    Leave a comment:


  • ComplianceLady
    replied
    My understanding is the umbrellas don't have certainty - you can interpret the rules one way or the other but they can't pay and run the risk that HMRC disagrees down the line, they need certainty. Umbrellas are furloughing (not all of them but I know of a few) but only based on the NMW element as that's all they're certain they're able to claim.

    It would be pretty easy for HMRC to clarify this, the fact they aren't makes me think that they would come back for the commission element.

    Leave a comment:


  • mrdonuts
    replied
    Originally posted by LiviHam View Post
    Martin Lewis tweeted this morning that the latest agreed statement from HMRC is that “Payments the employer is obliged to make to the employee should be included in the reference salary. Variable payments that are specified in a contract and are always paid in reality, can be included within the reference salary.” I believe this to mean that the reference salary should be NMW + bonus, i.e. the normal, full salary.
    is the real issue thats theres nothing in it for the umbrella, theyre doing work to process the furlough payment without gettinh their grubby mitts on any money

    Leave a comment:


  • LiviHam
    replied
    Originally posted by andydd68 View Post
    I believe Martin Lewis briefly covered this and would depend on what your contract say about 'commission' although he was referring to "normal" jobs not Umbrella Cos.
    Martin Lewis tweeted this morning that the latest agreed statement from HMRC is that “Payments the employer is obliged to make to the employee should be included in the reference salary. Variable payments that are specified in a contract and are always paid in reality, can be included within the reference salary.” I believe this to mean that the reference salary should be NMW + bonus, i.e. the normal, full salary.

    Leave a comment:


  • andydd68
    replied
    I believe Martin Lewis briefly covered this and would depend on what your contract say about 'commission' although he was referring to "normal" jobs not Umbrella Cos.

    Leave a comment:


  • WTFH
    replied
    Originally posted by eeldome View Post
    The point I'm trying to make and ask for input on is serious. Myself and many other workers are not being furloughed by Umbrella companies partly because the Umbrella claims they don't know how to calculate the furlough pay. The think they can only count NMW and cannot include discretionary 'Commission' or 'bonus' which is the bulk of our pay.

    I'm asking if anyone understands why it is called discretionary because looking at my contact of employment it doesn't appear to be.

    You've called it discretionary, but not shown where the umbrella calls it that.

    I wouldn't be surprised if the term was used, as it is commission, which is not guaranteed to be paid. You only get paid commission if and when the umbrella gets paid. If they do not get paid, then you do not get the commission. In that sense, it is discretionary because it is not compulsory or automatic, but is dependent on other things outside the control of the Umbrella.

    Leave a comment:


  • eeldome
    replied
    The point I'm trying to make and ask for input on is serious. Myself and many other workers are not being furloughed by Umbrella companies partly because the Umbrella claims they don't know how to calculate the furlough pay. The think they can only count NMW and cannot include discretionary 'Commission' or 'bonus' which is the bulk of our pay.

    I'm asking if anyone understands why it is called discretionary because looking at my contact of employment it doesn't appear to be.

    Leave a comment:


  • northernladuk
    replied
    I hope your contract doesn't look like your post

    Leave a comment:


  • WTFH
    replied
    Originally posted by eeldome View Post
    Umbrella companies and the FCSA are saying one of the key issues stopping Umbrella companies from furloughing workers is they need clarity on how to calculate furlough pay.
    OK

    Originally posted by eeldome View Post
    They and many others keep referring to the unfortunately termed 'commission' element of our pay as being discretionary.
    Can you point to somewhere that the term discretionary is used with regard to commission.

    Originally posted by eeldome View Post
    "Commission will only be paid once the Company has received payment from the Client or End User" ... Once the Umbrella company has received payment from the client or recruitment agent they have to pay me the 'commission' which they do as part of my pay for the specific week.
    OK, so commission is paid upon receipt of payment from the client, not on receipt of timesheet from you. While you might say you are getting paid for a particular week, you might find the reality is you get basic pay based on you submitting a timesheet and then a few weeks later, when the umbrella gets paid, you are getting the commission for that week.

    Two questions:
    1. Who is your umbrella?
    2. What is the actual issue you have?

    Leave a comment:


  • eeldome
    started a topic CJRS - Discretionary 'Commsion'

    CJRS - Discretionary 'Commsion'

    Umbrella companies and the FCSA are saying one of the key issues stopping Umbrella companies from furloughing workers is they need clarity on how to calculate furlough pay. They and many others keep referring to the unfortunately termed 'commission' element of our pay as being discretionary. Anyone know why they think it is discretionary? Has anyone actually looked at an Umbrella Contract of Employment? Mine is 18 pages and has 120 clauses. The word 'Discretionary' does not appear in the contract at all. The contract states "Your pay will be calculated and paid in accordance with this clause 3." It then states "Whilst on Assignment, you will be entitled to be paid Basic Pay for the hours that you work" and "In addition to payment under clause 3.2 you may be entitled to commission." and "Commission will only be paid once the Company has received payment from the Client or End User and will be added to payments made to you on a weekly/ fortnightly/monthly basis." This doesn't make it discretionary. Once the Umbrella company has received payment from the client or recruitment agent they have to pay me the 'commission' which they do as part of my pay for the specific week. They can't use their discretion and decide not to pay it to me. Am I missing something? Some workers may have contracts that specifically term the 'Commission' or 'Bonus' as discretionary or perhaps not be entitled to 'Commission' or 'Bonus' at all but that still does not make it discretionary.

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