Reply to: HND - Have No Degree

[ratewhore]

I think that degrees will become a necessity as time goes on simply because New Liebore want 50 percent of the population to have degrees.
With that policy in place, soon every man + dog will have a degree anyway. It's just a way to screen out thousands of applicants when you advertise a job.

Hang on...

If 50% of the population has a degree, doesn't that devalue it as a differentiator and consequently it should be less of a necessity?

I have my MSc on my CV as it is directly relevant to the work I do as a security architect. Otherwise it would form part of the education section which, yes, my CV has. I'm not into all this company brochure rubbish for agency work, they're not interested whether your 'CV is written on the first, second or third person as long as it is directly relevant to the role...

[boredsenseless]

It's a bit trickier than that, TBH. For one thing we usually spend 80% of the time sorting out technical specialists who insist on telling us why a business solution they know little about won't work

Agreed and strangely they only give these gigs to people with a track record of being able to deliver a corporate vision that can be demonstrated as achievable and given the fact most of the muppets they then contract to deliver it spend their time asking questions like 'how much can I claim for lunch even though I brought sandwiches cos my umbrella says I can claim £30?'... It's amazing it even gets past the first week without their incompetence f@cking it up.

[DaveB]

How well are they thought of in the market place for something like an MBA?

I guess a number of you review CVs as part of your roles - would you give OU any credibility?

Cheers.

For Bsc / BA the OU is definately worth it. MBA not so sure. Most of the big MBA schools run distance learning options anyway with brief residential sessions along the way.

In any case the university you got your degree from is less important than the fact that you have the degree to begin with. Unless it's an Oxbridge college it's pretty irrelavent.

[Pondlife]

Open University.

How well are they thought of in the market place for something like an MBA?

I guess a number of you review CVs as part of your roles - would you give OU any credibility?

Cheers.

[DaveB]

What are peoples thoughts on a Degree / MBA to ease emmigration to a foreign land (and no I don't mean England ).

With 14.5 years experience in the industry it does'nt make any difference to me in THIS country, but I am thinking in the next couple of years of 'getting out' - possibly another Western European country (France, Holland, work in Luxembourg), or possibly Canada. This would be before I reach 40, and guess is I would find it easier if I to Emmigrate outside the EU with a Degree plus recognised industry qualifications, and to Trade / find work within the EU for the same reasons....

And if so, can anybody recommend a reasonable Computer Science distance learning course that is not Mickey Mouse / laughed at by recruiters?

Open University.

[mcquiggd]

What are peoples thoughts on a Degree / MBA to ease emmigration to a foreign land (and no I don't mean England ).

With 14.5 years experience in the industry it does'nt make any difference to me in THIS country, but I am thinking in the next couple of years of 'getting out' - possibly another Western European country (France, Holland, work in Luxembourg), or possibly Canada. This would be before I reach 40, and guess is I would find it easier if I to Emmigrate outside the EU with a Degree plus recognised industry qualifications, and to Trade / find work within the EU for the same reasons....

And if so, can anybody recommend a reasonable Computer Science distance learning course that is not Mickey Mouse / laughed at by recruiters?

[oraclesmith]

Ok, that's all very helpful. Thanks everyone. Developing this a bit further, do you think it would it be worth booking some training in learning a language, tool or method which I haven't currently got, given that I'm unlikely to get a contract on the strength of being 'initially trained' in it and I might not be offered a contract where I can actually use it ?

To give you a bit of background, I have mainly voluntary sector experience but with technical specialisms (Oracle) which are not widespread in the sector. I also have a wide range of experience in business analysis, DBA, team leading and project management but haven't done PRINCE2 certification or Oracle Certs or management diploma's or SSADM etc etc. So my CV is mainly a narrative of (fairly impressive) experience with just two organisations rather than a list of the buzzwords that agents presumably look for when sifting CV's. My tech experience is, for example, is Oracle Developer but not J2EE. On the other hand I am (IMHO) very good at what I do.

So I was thinking that I go and do one of these courses while I'm on the bench, thus consuming quite a chunk of company profits. I've only just started looking for my first agency contract (I have gone direct for contracts to date) so I can't gauge my success rate at the moment.

[Cowboy Bob]

Be honest. Most contracts are for run of the mill donkey work. Except for the blaggers amongst us, how many contractors will get on to a contract where they learn lots of news things i.e. add to their skillset ?
Not many I would imagine.

I make sure that every contract I do contains at least one new skill to learn. Obviously I'll have all the other requisite skills that the client needs - which is another point. I only take contracts where I get to use a wide variety of skills - I'm not into donkey work, I'm a senior developer/architect.

[partimer]

Food for thought

Be honest. Most contracts are for run of the mill donkey work. Except for the blaggers amongst us, how many contractors will get on to a contract where they learn lots of news things i.e. add to their skillset ?
Not many I would imagine.

As a contractor you're "stuck" with your skills unless you go on courses to refresh, reskill, etc. Which goes back to the original point. Paper certs. (degrees included) are useful in some cases and is a start for when you are new to that particular skill.

There can only be a few contracts where you are paid to learn "on the job". If you are the PM why hire a contractor who doesn't have the skill you're after ?
Hence this thread has gone 360. (Yes, you can blag but you know what I mean in this thread).
The usual dilemma, can't get the contract without experience. Can't get the experience without the contract.

This is a generalisation. There are always exceptions.

[malvolio]

unless we wish to go into very senior strategic roles (which is to be honest is tempting, 5 years of blah blah strategy and then move on without delivering anything).

It's a bit trickier than that, TBH. For one thing we usually spend 80% of the time sorting out technical specialists who insist on telling us why a business solution they know little about won't work

[barely_pointless]

It's all bull* unless you plan to join the ranks of the permies and then compete by deceit, lies, treachery, and the usual permie rubbish that HR departments delight in.

A mate of mine runs the MBA programme for a very well known business school in Europe (not mentioning where) and he reckons its a joke, especially these permie idiots who try and apply leadership tactics afterwards.

he also reckons its just not worth it for people like career contractors , unless we wish to go into very senior strategic roles (which is to be honest is tempting, 5 years of blah blah strategy and then move on without delivering anything).

The importance of a degree is inversely proportional to your experience over time - ie it reduces, I should say that the client list is more important, (ie get the big names on for a few years and you're set)

[VectraMan]

Back in March/April when I was on the bench there were a couple of contract ads that did say "at least a 2.1 degree in a related discipline". I think they were mostly for games companies, but it's the first time I've ever felt underqualified in only having a third.

I'd hope my 14 years of proven experience in graphics and multimedia software is worth more than 3 years of getting stoned and listening to people talk about how only they can understand the true depth of feeling expressed by Roger Waters in Pink Floyd's "The Wall", but there you go.

[sekisho]

HND is now known as a Foundation Degree, so you do have a degree!

(the rename is probably to enable some statistical sleight of hand to show that over 50% of people are now getting degrees)

[oraclesmith]

OK thanks for the advice. I'll probably remove the education altogether section now. I thought it looked a bit wrong anyhow - I don't want to give the impression that I think it's still relevant.

Here's an idea : could someone modify or extend the CUK CV advice so that it's more relevant to limited applying for contracts ?

[Pondlife]

A red-brick engineering degree was and still is precisely SFA use to a contractor after 5-10 years in the industry.

Agreed! Degree + post grad in engineering - hasn't been used, thought about or mentioned since my first day in work.