Reply to: Stating an overseas rate

[NotAllThere]

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I'm surprised but I suppose you must have a good idea after 13 years of what the all in rate should be to cover travel etc!

I think that relates more to a contract that requires more than a daily commute - not one when you expect to travel on behalf of the client.

[expat]

That sounds logical but in 13 years contracting in other EU+CH countries, I have only once had a client/agency that would do rate+expenses, generally they want an all-in rate.

I'm surprised but I suppose you must have a good idea after 13 years of what the all in rate should be to cover travel etc!

Yes I do, for all likely locations and currencies!

I just meant that IME clients and agents usually don't want to be bothered with it. 1- or 2- day short-notice gigs excepted of course.

[edison]

Quoting excluding travel/accommodation seems better to me, as you cannot hope to estimate those at this point.

I agree that going down the day rate excluding expenses is the best way to go. It could be hard to predict the amount and cost of travel you will need to do - priorities change, meetings change etc. I recently had to travel from Switzerland to Spain for an overnight trip at short notice instead of flying from the UK as originally planned. Most of the flights available were £500-600 one way economy. Some flights were £1200 - you wouldn't want to absorb that in your day rate! Sometimes my hotels have been £200 plus a night, especially in the likes of Switzerland. It can soon add up to a lot of money and you could get burnt if you haven't worked it out carefully and built some contingency too.

As a fairly new contractor, I can only talk from fairly limited experience but my role over the last 6 months has involved about 30-40% travel across Europe. My contract is for a day rate plus expenses. The key part is making sure it's absolutely clear what expenses the client pays for. I have it in writing that they will pay for all flights, accommodation, local travel (e.g. taxis/trains) and subsistence - i.e. dinner/breakfast when I travel anywhere other than to their head office in the UK. Usually the client books all the travel but on a few occasions I have picked up the hotel cost and recharged it to them.

That sounds logical but in 13 years contracting in other EU+CH countries, I have only once had a client/agency that would do rate+expenses, generally they want an all0in rate.

I'm surprised but I suppose you must have a good idea after 13 years of what the all in rate should be to cover travel etc!

[GazCol]

Well, they offered me a phone interview from the India office and then didn't bother calling. I sent a somewhat snotty e-mail (I had to leave the office and sit in a layby for 30 minutes) explaining that I'd be unable to comit to any interviews now. They tried to call (Different number but clearly foreign), I ignored them and doubt I'll regret it.

Oh, during the day they left 15 (yes, I counted) missed calls on my mobile phone despite being asked explicitly to call my land-line due to signal issues in the office.

Strange experience all round. Sounded like complete crap start to finish.

That would have set all kinds of alarm bells off for me; I would have just left it there without the email.

[vwdan]

Well, they offered me a phone interview from the India office and then didn't bother calling. I sent a somewhat snotty e-mail (I had to leave the office and sit in a layby for 30 minutes) explaining that I'd be unable to comit to any interviews now. They tried to call (Different number but clearly foreign), I ignored them and doubt I'll regret it.

Oh, during the day they left 15 (yes, I counted) missed calls on my mobile phone despite being asked explicitly to call my land-line due to signal issues in the office.

Strange experience all round. Sounded like complete crap start to finish.

[expat]

Quoting excluding travel/accommodation seems better to me, as you cannot hope to estimate those at this point.

That sounds logical but in 13 years contracting in other EU+CH countries, I have only once had a client/agency that would do rate+expenses, generally they want an all0in rate.

[d000hg]

Quoting excluding travel/accommodation seems better to me, as you cannot hope to estimate those at this point.

[NotAllThere]

That's fine, thank you - I can simply respond saying that it's not possible for me to state a day rate on the information provided.

The simplest approach is simply to say that my day rate is £blah, subject to the specifics of the location and the contract. You are then not bound by what you said. Even if you say straight out "£500" (e.g.) it's extremely hard to bind you to the rate until the contract is signed. It is vitally important to remember that until your signature is on the contract, everything is negotiable.

However, if they won't even tell you what country it is in, they're being needlessly coy and you tell them to get stuffed. The chances of anything coming of it are remote if they're being that stupid.

[vwdan]

So very glad I didn't spend much time thinking about it. They called me back and gave me an "average" day rate which was less than I expect to earn over here...

[vwdan]

The first thing you need to establish is where and for how long - from there you've got the basic information to establish how much the rate is in real terms as you'll then be able research tax rates and cost of living.

That's fine, thank you - I can simply respond saying that it's not possible for me to state a day rate on the information provided.

[GazCol]

Do you have any advice on how I should handle responding to this request? Like I say, I don't have any real hope of landing it, but I am available and I'd certainly do it if I got the chance. But I don't want to waste money and time consulting people on it just for the sake of an e-mail. Is it acceptable to give a rate subject to change after due diligence with regards to tax?

The first thing you need to establish is where and for how long - from there you've got the basic information to establish how much the rate is in real terms as you'll then be able research tax rates and cost of living.

[vwdan]

It should be that simple, but rarely is. When contracting abroad I always consult with a cross-border tax specialist in the designated country – it might cost a lot, sometimes a significant amount, but it’s worth it for the peace of mind and if I was in contracting for the money, I wouldn’t do it abroad.

Do you have any advice on how I should handle responding to this request? Like I say, I don't have any real hope of landing it, but I am available and I'd certainly do it if I got the chance. But I don't want to waste money and time consulting people on it just for the sake of an e-mail. Is it acceptable to give a rate subject to change after due diligence with regards to tax?

[GazCol]

Hmm, I may be in deeper than I want to be (I don't have any real hope of getting this gig, but it seems silly to not respond). It's an EU country and I rather naively (at 0700 this morning) just thought I could work there and get taxed here, but you make a bloody good point. I need to do way more reading first.

It should be that simple, but rarely is. When contracting abroad I always consult with a cross-border tax specialist in the designated country – it might cost a lot, sometimes a significant amount, but it’s worth it for the peace of mind and if I was in contracting for the money, I wouldn’t do it abroad.

[vwdan]

You need to know the location, the length of the contract and tax laws of the country you’ll be contracting in, just for a start – there’s a world of difference between the equivalent of a £500/day role in Norway/Switzerland compared to Romania/Cyprus, for example.

Hmm, I may be in deeper than I want to be (I don't have any real hope of getting this gig, but it seems silly to not respond). It's an EU country and I rather naively (at 0700 this morning) just thought I could work there and get taxed here, but you make a bloody good point. I need to do way more reading first.

[GazCol]

I've been asked to state a day rate for a European role, and I just wondered how you guys sussed it out? I can do some guesswork on flights and hotel, but even doing "due diligence" without knowing a more exact location isn't that much better than the finger in the air approach. Do I make the presumption that I'll be covering expenses and should I state that presumption? (I want to say yes on the presumption, but no to stating it, because if they were expecting to cover some expenses then I've just done myself out of it)

You need to know the location, the length of the contract and tax laws of the country you’ll be contracting in, just for a start – there’s a world of difference between the equivalent of a £500/day role in Norway/Switzerland compared to Romania/Cyprus, for example.