Reply to: Does this count as discussing rate?

[IanIan]

Did you find out what percentage the agency is taking?

No I didn't. I'm not really that bothered.

However I've got my rate up to what they originally offered me before the talk down plus a six month extension so I'm fairly chuffed now.

[Dominic Connor]

Just so you know

Why would you tell the agent that you knew what they were charging the client?

Now you can have some real fun with them. When you are ready to renew just tell the client that you are going to ask the agent for a bump and see what the client says. Most likely it will be, he's not getting any more from us.

So now you have an agent sandwich. Knowledge is power. So you can just treat the agent the way he treats you, with contempt and abuse. Knowing full well that he will give you your money.

Oh happy days

Just so you know, the way it works at some agencies is that the particular agent who got you the contract may get nothing if you renew, so he may not care.

At others he will get a reduced rake off, the payment schemes for agents are often stupidly complex and give perverse incentives.

[northernladuk]

Me too, always find out one way or another. One of the advantages in PMing is you get to see the contractor rate cards.

Which has no relation to what the contractor is being paid of course.....

[Project Monkey]

WHS. As soon as I am in the good books of the client and he is happy with me, I pop the question; "So how much am I costing you?", and out comes the answer Always good to know what the agency margin is. That way you can be open with the client, and tell them what the agency cut is. In the last 3 gigs I have always known the agency cut. It also opens doors to negotiate with the client, and ask them to tell the agency to cut down their margin, or bump up the rate (happened with my current gig). All this "don't discuss rate with the client" is to keep us from knowing the agency margin. On the flip side, if you wanted to leave a gig early, you should return the favour and tell the client first before the agency (the same person who told you the true daily rate). Otherwise it would mean double standards, and I for one, would think that as unfair.

Me too, always find out one way or another. One of the advantages in PMing is you get to see the contractor rate cards.

[Wanderer]

My agent keeps reiterating that I shouldn't discuss my rate with the client.

I wonder why they say that?

So the client asks me if I'll take a nine month contract for a more competitive rate (i.e. lower) and I say I'd prefer three months and the current rate isn't very good anyway. So she asks what I'm actually receiving and I tell her and she's like, we'll have to get you more money from the agency rather than us!

The cat is out of the bag now then! If the client is willing to discuss rates directly then I ALWAYS discuss it with them. The agency will be pissed when they find out but what can they do? Terminate your contract so they get nothing?

I think the agency should be transparent on what their margins are anyway. When I was recruiting contractors I always told them what the rate on offer was so they agency wouldn't try to screw them. As a contractor, I've also had clients tell agencies to get me an increase out of their margin too so this isn't uncommon especially for longer term contracts.

Did you find out what percentage the agency is taking? On a long term contract like that, 5-10% is plenty.

[northernladuk]

It happens in offices - people print out documents and forget to pick them up.

To work out whose document it is you have to look at the actual document for name or department.

The unprofessional part is where the person who saw the document makes a comment or starts discussing what was in the document.

And don't forget agents have been known to mail all their contractors with the rates that everyone is on which has happened in the past few years.

I would imagine there are a host of reasons the agent doesn't want him to discuss rates but you can guarantee one of them will be the contractor not understanding margins and causing a right fuss about it when they find out instead of shrugging it off as they signed it happily and just screw the agent over next renewal.

[IanIan]

You could state your rate to the client; that would not count as a discussion.

That's exactly what I thought. It felt to me as though I was stating a fact to enable HR to have a discussion.

[SueEllen]

If its extremely unprofessional then why would you be leaving confidential documents at the printer?

It happens in offices - people print out documents and forget to pick them up.

To work out whose document it is you have to look at the actual document for name or department.

The unprofessional part is where the person who saw the document makes a comment or starts discussing what was in the document.

And what difference does it make if the agency is making a good margin?

If you want a rate increase on renewal and the agency is getting a fat margin then the client isn't likely to pay the agency more for you. After all they are paying £x per month and think that you will be getting most of it.

[Paddy]

You could state your rate to the client; that would not count as a discussion.

[Dominic Connor]

I think the lesson is that some lessons you get for free, but some cost you real money, the trick is to get good value for what they cost.

[IanIan]

And what have you learned about negotiation tactics from this? Here's your starter for ten: you're not very good at it.

Yeah thanks for that.

Well I was desperate for work.

[NotAllThere]

I would never discuss my rate with the client unless they happened to mention that they are paying the agency a lot more than they happened to see on the invoice or copy of the contract I forgot to collect from the printer, it's extremely unprofessional.

If its extremely unprofessional then why would you be leaving confidential documents at the printer? And what difference does it make if the agency is making a good margin?

I suspect irony.

[Epiphone]

Also, I'm still a little peeved since the original rate quoted was £40 above what I got. The agent said something about the client's budget being tight and asked what my minimum was which unsurprisingly is what I got...

And what have you learned about negotiation tactics from this? Here's your starter for ten: you're not very good at it.

[Dominic Connor]

As an agent...

As an agent I have no problem telling a contractor what the deal is, frankly the margin is often less than they think and some firms try to set fixed margins, partly to stop the ill feeling that arises if the contractor feels the margin is too large.

Unless the contract you signed says you can't discuss rate, you don't have to do or not do anything the agent says, the clue is in the name, I/they are not your boss, I/they am a broker, matching up buyers and sellers.

It is the case that some clients require that the agent doesn't discuss margins and rates and that we impose this on the contractor. Quite how we are supposed to stop the employee of another company who every day chats to the other people on site is a mystery to me, but if the client demands this, we have to play ball.

There is no such thing as secrecy here...

Aside from the practical problems of keeping it confidential, people can't really store "unknown" in their heads. A contractor will have some idea of the margin, he may be wrong, but a "value" will be in that brain cell and if he's cynical about the agent and/or the agent tries to be secretive, that guesstimate value will go up.

Discussing rates with the client, begs the question of who you think the client is ?

The guy who tells you what to do may or may not already know what you cost and in firms where the margin is fixed he will therefore know what you get.

There is a the tricky case of the rest of the team.

Your daily rate will often be quite a lot higher than theirs, yes I know you can't directly compare, but that won't stop some of them being annoyed. This may affect how they work with you and it is far from unknown for permies to find out what contractors get, compare their skills and go freelance. At one place I contracted the MD spoke at a firm-wide meeting of how contractors were "sucking the life blood out of the firm" which was why there were no pay rises and only sales people were getting bonuses. He didn't say that about the sales people, but we all knew and so immediately after several permies asked me about how one became a contractor.

[bobspud]

Yep agent is being a twunt. Mine is in the same boat however they don't know that both me and the client are aware of what a little bunch of they are. There is a renewal on the cards soon and I expect to be doing rather well out of it.

As soon as an agent states they don't want me discussing rates its the first thing I do.