Reply to: Is the Java market flooded with candidates?

[Lockhouse]

There is a world outside banking. It's not what it was. (22 years an IB contractor, 25 years contracting in all). The hours are generally shorter outside banking and the work is more interesting. You might be getting £50-£75 per day less but if it means you waste an additional 4 weeks looking for a banking contract, you'll be ahead.

[SueEllen]

Nice rant theroyale.

My many clients find it unacceptable for you to spend 3-5 hours on the phone daily to sort put your personal business when they are paying for you to work. They find it particular offensive when they are also paying for the call.

Oddly having ONE daily half hour call to your partner is acceptable as long as you are paying for the call. It can even be at your desk if you aren't shouting. Likewise sorting out your children's issues is also ok if done occasionally.


In regards to entire company tea breaks that's a relic from the 70s. The majority of offices I've worked don't have a problem if teams of people have a break at the same time.

With sharing food again many companies don't have issues doing that.

Maybe you need to choose your clients a bit more carefully.

[theroyale]

Cultural expectations at the workplace

They are phoning:
1. their mother,
2. their wife,
3. their other female relations,
4. their bank to move money
5. their other financial institutions to see how their investments are doing
6. are seeing if they can get a better job

And then and only then when they have done that and it's near the end of the day they phone the manager and do 0.5 hours of work.

How do I know? I listen in. I'm female, was brought up in London in a multiculture area and so they speak on the phone in front of me thinking I don't understand.

While a lack of delivery standards is a lack of delivery standards and there are no two ways about that, you are talking here about approach to life in the workplace. There are some genuine cultural differences in how workplace life is approached that many people in Britain (and certainly yourself going by your post) do not see or wish to see:

In the country I worked in before I came to Britain you were allowed to "bring your life in" to the workplace. The 4 o clock 'tea break' taken in the corridors or the canteen was sacred - it is where people got to know each other and buy each other coffees. At lunchtime you shared the (home-cooked!) lunches you each brought from home. Atmosphere of utter camaraderie and friendliness, that built as the time you spent in the company went along. And yes far more personal phone calls between 9 and 5 than is allowed here. The fundamental idea being that life and work are not two separate things, that to be comfortable in one you have to be comfortable in the other. And that they're allowed to mix. And that you're a happier more joined-up person when they are allowed to mix.

In my five years (and 6-8 workplaces) in Britain I have found the exact opposite. Some places have friendly people, sure, but the friendliness is always on a clock. Chat for 3 minutes, more than that and you will be ignored for the rest of the day. Not uncommon in Britain for people to spend 9-5 entirely at their desks, sandwich at the desk for lunch, without talking to anyone unless it is absolutely about the business (of course they're actually sat browsing the internet, but hey there's alt-tab and nobody needs to know right?!). Maintain Professionalism, or atleast Our Version of it.

So the Brits find Bobs' behaviour odd. And this forum of course is an intense microcosm of it. But let me just say that I've met lots of people from around the world who work in IT and the corporate world here in Britain who feel straitjacketed at what is expected once you've entered the office in the name of professionalism here: I'm talking Spanish, Italians, Middle Easterners, Brazilians. And yes Indians too.

I do think that your Bobs talking to their wives and financial advisers *should* take their conversation out to the corridor and not have it at their desk. But perhaps there is just a bit more to this story than what most people in this country want to face up to.

[proggy]

Java is on a downward trend. There seems to be a never ending supply of .NET contracts.

[BlasterBates]

I've been a Java dev in investment banks for over 15 years. Along the way have built systems in Smalltalk, .Net, C++, Scala and obviously Java. Experience with financial pricing/risk and both server and GUI development. Did a stint as a perm manager too managing a large risk dev team. Have a strong academic background and cv looks good.

So, I obviously I don't have a problem finding a contract...

Or so I thought.

Spent 2 months looking from Feb this year. Fortunately client co extended me but in that time I had God knows how many calls, a few technical tests and phone interviews and in total 1 actual interview which led to an offer, but decided to stick with client co as the rate was better.

The IB I'm with at present has me until November this year. And then I'm really unsure how things will pan out. It was a real shock to the system as I've always jumped from role to role. Never thought about actually struggling to find work. Was a real eye opener.

Banks are seeing huge changes at present. The spotlight is on them as they now have to be seen to be proactive in reducing costs, shutting down the old prop trading arms and ensuring regulatory controls actually work. Both perm and contract staff have no real job security now.

The use of cheap Indian labour is the final nail in the coffin imho. Over the last 5 years I've seen huge chunks of work vanish overseas with mainly sub standard delivery and professionalism. Not always, but nearly always.

So what to do? Go perm at a bank? Not really an option for me as I've lived that world and put up with all the political bulltulip and cock waving. Work outside of banking and just suck up the rate cut? Retrain as a PM (shudder) or become a mobile app developer?

I don't know. But one things for sure is that the world we used to know in the city is over.

I have a similar background, been working in banks for the last 14 years. The bank I was working at kicked us out on mass at the end of last year. I see no return at all of contractors to the bank as you used to see in the past.

I´ve just started perm in an Internet co.

My advice would be look outside banking. My other colleagues are slowly drifting into jobs, one at Audi developing automotive systems, still as a contractor, another at Sungard, and one as a PM a an energy trading company. A lot less contracts around and if you want one you have to be prepared to travel.

[cherhill]

This is not just specific to Java or Banking it's the whole of IT in my opinion.

[flambo]

I've been a Java dev in investment banks for over 15 years. Along the way have built systems in Smalltalk, .Net, C++, Scala and obviously Java. Experience with financial pricing/risk and both server and GUI development. Did a stint as a perm manager too managing a large risk dev team. Have a strong academic background and cv looks good.

So, I obviously I don't have a problem finding a contract...

Or so I thought.

Spent 2 months looking from Feb this year. Fortunately client co extended me but in that time I had God knows how many calls, a few technical tests and phone interviews and in total 1 actual interview which led to an offer, but decided to stick with client co as the rate was better.

The IB I'm with at present has me until November this year. And then I'm really unsure how things will pan out. It was a real shock to the system as I've always jumped from role to role. Never thought about actually struggling to find work. Was a real eye opener.

Banks are seeing huge changes at present. The spotlight is on them as they now have to be seen to be proactive in reducing costs, shutting down the old prop trading arms and ensuring regulatory controls actually work. Both perm and contract staff have no real job security now.

The use of cheap Indian labour is the final nail in the coffin imho. Over the last 5 years I've seen huge chunks of work vanish overseas with mainly sub standard delivery and professionalism. Not always, but nearly always.

So what to do? Go perm at a bank? Not really an option for me as I've lived that world and put up with all the political bulltulip and cock waving. Work outside of banking and just suck up the rate cut? Retrain as a PM (shudder) or become a mobile app developer?

I don't know. But one things for sure is that the world we used to know in the city is over.

[Dominic Connor]

Java will decline

>Dominic, the biggest thing you neglect on that article is understanding the plethora of Java related open source frameworks out there.

Yes frameworks are important, but there is very little of a barrier to entry and that is what keeps pay higher.

> Look beyond Spring Framework and Hibernate then there is tons and tons of stuff open source projects to know.

You imply that this is good, which it is for the Java ecosystem, I don't wrote for the benefit of ecosystems but for readers.
The problem with lots of choices is that it pushes up the chances of you picking the wrong ones and in a buzzword driven job market that's a big risk.

>The trouble is to wet the end of your finger and say, "Whence does the wind blow?"
Agreed, but winds can change direction faster than you can tack.


>The OP was concerned about Java. Java is not just a programming language.
Yes it is.


>The name is also about the Java Virtual Machine and also the wide community of products, frameworks and tools.
If I'd meant to talk about JVMs then I would have, indeed my article pipeline has several articles that mention JVMs, they are a different thing but Scala et al may be nice little niches as is the engineering of high performance JVMs like those from Azul, but niches nevertheless


> There are so many technologies to learn I do agree that you can locked into say Spring and Hibernate and then in 2016 or so. What? It's all gone.

Yep, that's what I was warning about. Better you get an article about this risk from me, then a foreclosure letter from the bank on your mortgage because you haven't kept near enough the edge.



> Probably Gooblygook to the other contractors who don't care about Java or programming.
Only a fool would base their entire career strategy on one of my articles, but would be just as stupid to dismiss them, the idea is to make more people think proactively about managing their careers, be they in Java, Security, HelpDesk or whatever.

[doodab]

Having done some front end on a Java site earlier this year I can only agree. Compared to .net MVC3/4 struts is scarily limited.

Struts is only one framework though, and it's one of the oldest. Something like play framework would make a better comparison.

[eek]

It´s being squeezed, too slow, cumbersome and not as pretty as .Net (front end). This is what I was told by a recruiter. Of course there are still plenty of jobs but it´s just not as hot as it was.

Having done some front end on a Java site earlier this year I can only agree. Compared to .net MVC3/4 struts is scarily limited.

[TheFaQQer]

With Fusion Apps, a fair bit of the Oracle tech-stack is moving from core PL/SQL to Java.

The reason being that every university churns out loads of grads who can do Java, and only a handful that can do PL/SQL. I can't remember which Oracle person said it, but my gut feeling is that's almost an exact quote from Larry Ellison.

[BlasterBates]

Banking is rubbish, staff still being cut. Just heard a rumour that Credit Suisse going to cut their head count by 30%. There are a few highly specialised contracts/jobs out there, but they´re being very picky. Quite a bit of it is driven by regulation so I don´t see a gr8 longterm future, once that´s over there will be another clear out. I know that will be the case at the bank I used to work at. Generally lots of outsourcing going on and trading areas being closed down. Doesn´t surprise me that Java is hardest hit, as lot of the front end Java can be easily outsourced.

I would look beyond banking. It´s not the bright place it used to be, project teams here today will be gone tomorrow. Doesn´t help that Java is on a downer, C++ is growing in popularity for servers and .Net is replacing it on the front end. It´s being squeezed, too slow, cumbersome and not as pretty as .Net (front end). This is what I was told by a recruiter. Of course there are still plenty of jobs but it´s just not as hot as it was.

[SueEllen]

i've noticed all the bobs seem to be on the phone all the time, are they phoning up mission control to find out how to do the job ? i would have though that with the quadzillion phds they claim to have and their 50 years experience for untraceable company in wherever it is they come from they wouldnt need to. I'm puzzled

They are phoning:
1. their mother,
2. their wife,
3. their other female relations,
4. their bank to move money
5. their other financial institutions to see how their investments are doing
6. are seeing if they can get a better job

And then and only then when they have done that and it's near the end of the day they phone the manager and do 0.5 hours of work.

How do I know? I listen in. I'm female, was brought up in London in a multiculture area and so they speak on the phone in front of me thinking I don't understand.

[mrdonuts]

i've noticed all the bobs seem to be on the phone all the time, are they phoning up mission control to find out how to do the job ? i would have though that with the quadzillion phds they claim to have and their 50 years experience for untraceable company in wherever it is they come from they wouldnt need to. I'm puzzled

[rocktronAMP]

I said the Java market was peaking 18 months ago, since it takes time for that to take effect, about now is when it hits you.

Put down the Java manual ? The Register

You are entitled to your opinions on Java.

Dominic, the biggest thing you neglect on that article is understanding the plethora of Java related open source frameworks out there. Look beyond Spring Framework and Hibernate then there is tons and tons of stuff open source projects to know. The trouble is to wet the end of your finger and say, "Whence does the wind blow?"

The OP was concerned about Java. Java is not just a programming language. The name is also about the Java Virtual Machine and also the wide community of products, frameworks and tools. There are so many technologies to learn I do agree that you can locked into say Spring and Hibernate and then in 2016 or so. What? It's all gone. Probably Gooblygook to the other contractors who don't care about Java or programming.

I suspect Java since it was born 1995 will still be here 2016 and beyond. What is going to change is the stuff around the programming languages, the JVM and integrating technologies.

You are right about business skills. Technology is not a panacea. If you are interested business, then usually it right there. If you are interested in management, then I think it best to take a permanent position. From the sound of your article, you seem to say; take stock of your career because only you can do so.

All I will say to the OP is to have a good look at the other languages on the JVM, if you want to stretch just programming languages: Groovy, Clojure, Scala and even JRuby. I will repeat what I said before look outside of banking as well. There was even another thread here that pulled the dirty pants down on the "you need banking experience" tulip nonsense. So if you left banking for while then you can always get back in the future.

(Hey. Why not reinvent yourself? You know Java. Learn Android, become a mobile dev.)

Good luck.