Reply to: Working hours

[psychocandy]

There is a fine line calling the clients though. A client paying for an expensive contractor expects to work them hard and take no crap. You can hardly call a client a twat for wanting their pound of flesh and not being flexible with moaning contractors. There is a line that can be crossed as well I agree but still.

I agree with you. If client is paying top dollar then they dont want any hassle off you.

BUT, whereas most play the game fairly and allow a bit of give and take, there are those who have a chip on their shoulder. They seem to think that because they are paying a premium its their right to screw the contractor for as many hours per day as they can.

For instance, I remember a recent post where the client told contractor he was a temp and had to have last choice of holidays. Talk about treating contractor like crap.

[northernladuk]

Some clients are twats that is clear. But like someone said, I know theres all this D+C stuff but most of them dont give a rats arse about your personal situation.

Then again a lot will try to tell you what to do with regards to holidays / time etc.

Im not sure about this agreeing at the interview stage unless its a show stopper for you. Puts clients off when you're on about leaving early before you even started.

But, if I was in your situation, like others have said, I'd just do it and see what happens. Chances are they wont moan about it but if they do, then you know what they think and its time to get another contract.

There is a fine line calling the clients though. A client paying for an expensive contractor expects to work them hard and take no crap. You can hardly call a client a twat for wanting their pound of flesh and not being flexible with moaning contractors. There is a line that can be crossed as well I agree but still.

[psychocandy]

Some clients are twats that is clear. But like someone said, I know theres all this D+C stuff but most of them dont give a rats arse about your personal situation.

Then again a lot will try to tell you what to do with regards to holidays / time etc.

Im not sure about this agreeing at the interview stage unless its a show stopper for you. Puts clients off when you're on about leaving early before you even started.

But, if I was in your situation, like others have said, I'd just do it and see what happens. Chances are they wont moan about it but if they do, then you know what they think and its time to get another contract.

[psychocandy]

Ask or check whether it's an inconvenience?

There is a difference.

WSS. BIG BIG BIG Agree.

[Butcheroo]

Working hours

Would be interesting to see what else they don't let you do from an IR35 perspective though. Could open a bit of a can of worms. If it is just working times and you can't have flexibility as no one else does you might be able to work your way around it (IR35 wise) but is thsi the only thing they won't budge on?

Was going to ask the same. Trying to learn from you about control and surely having to ask all this permission shouts control and inside ir35. Employee alert

[MyUserName]

Imagine what IBM would do in your situation. If they had a consultant on site who wanted to leave early and had cleared it with IBM they would not normally ask the project manager's permission.

They might inform him and at the business level (in other words, with your MD hat on) discuss things with him to reach a mutually convenient compromise but managers on site do not manage IBM's workers, IBM does that and the contract they agree with the client provides a framework for expectations.

However, whether your manager sees it this way is another thing altogether! Good luck.

[Swamp Thing]

We have to ask before taking holidays too.

Have to say, you sound well inside the D&C guidelines for IR35; I'd start to mirror in the workplace what your contract hopefully says - be autonomous.

The previous contributors are 100% on this - don't ask, just state what you are going to do - holiday, WFH, etc etc. First and foremost you're a business, so act like you're in a B2B relationship (God, I think I'm sounding like NLUK )

One more thing for your next gig: at first interview don't raise anything about hours, WFH, holiday etc. Asking these questions makes you sound like work-to-rule. Treat the interview like a business presentation.

Assuming you then get a follow-up interview, you can bring in some of these questions, but do it in an informal way. If after 1st interview you get an offer, then raise the questions with your pimp.

But TBH, I wouldn't raise them at all. Just start the gig, assert your requirements from Day 1 and everything else will fall into place.

[northernladuk]

We have to ask before taking holidays too.

I think some clever wording on your part could also mean this isn't an issue. If you fall in to the mind set of having to ask for permission to take holidays you are just shooting yourself in the foot.

[SueEllen]

oh dear...surely the 50 hour weeks done in the past warrant some sympathy?? never get overtime...

If it's a long term client then you should have just disappeared when it was appropriate.

[SueEllen]

We have to ask before taking holidays too.

Ask or check whether it's an inconvenience?

There is a difference.

[simplicity]

Would be interesting to see what else they don't let you do from an IR35 perspective though. Could open a bit of a can of worms. If it is just working times and you can't have flexibility as no one else does you might be able to work your way around it (IR35 wise) but is thsi the only thing they won't budge on?

We have to ask before taking holidays too.

[northernladuk]

Would be interesting to see what else they don't let you do from an IR35 perspective though. Could open a bit of a can of worms. If it is just working times and you can't have flexibility as no one else does you might be able to work your way around it (IR35 wise) but is thsi the only thing they won't budge on?

[BA to the Stars]

So why did you take the contract? To the client, you are just a facility to be used and they do not give a damn about your personal circumstances, they have enough to worry about with their permie resource.

I am not wishing to be confrontational but am looking at it from the client perspective. Prior to renewal time, I would look for a role with a shorter commute / working hours.

[northernladuk]

At my contract 8 hours work is expected per day, there is no homeworking or flexitime. For working mums this is tricky with an hour commute and kids homework rtc to do in the evening. I asked if I could work a slightly shorter day on some days e.g 7 hours and it has caused a fuss. I know other contractors on different projects at the same company who work a 7 hour day everyday while getting same daily rate.

All I was asking was to be paid for the hours I do -so if I do 7 hours I get paid for 7 and not 8...am I being unreasonable?

It isn't unreasonable to ask. It is unreasonable to get upset if you don't get it. Sometimes clients are flexible, sometimes they aren't. That's life. You can't expect every client to bend to your demands. Also remember you are not an employee of the company, you have a business relationship. Permies can get very upset when contractors get flexibility they don't.

Some clients are great and don't give a monkies as long as you deliver, some won't budge an inch. Always worth asking but you are gonna have to take the answer on the chin sometimes.

[NotAllThere]

3. Do what you have to, and take the consequences.

I was on one contract where I came in towards midday on Mondays, and left in mid-afternoon on Fridays, to get the trains that suited me. Nobody ever said anything and I was renewed a couple of times. Another contractor on the same team wanted to do the same, so he asked: and was refused.

A general principle for life: it is easier to ask forgiveness than to ask permission. Just be prepared to take the consequences, though it pay off 9 times out of 10.