Reply to: Was I being unreasonable querying the contract?

[strawberrysmoothie]

Word of advice.

When accepting a contract verbally always use the words 'I would like to accept subject to contract'. This gives you a caveat that if there is something in the contract you do not like then you can back out or renegotiate some terms.

Keeps them on their toes.

I second that. And if your pimp queries why only you'll accept 'subject to contract...' just say 'it's standard business practice for both parties entering into a professional agreement...'

[2BIT]

We don't know for sure if it is project based work, do we?

They could have atleast discussed with the OP and made their decision, that is reasonable. A contract is a two way thing. But, normally the stronger party (in this case, the client, in buyers market) tries to impose its own agenda on the weaker party.

nope just saying if it was then it makes sense...

[MarillionFan]

Half of the contracts I've had have been done via telephone interviews. It's quicker and cheaper for all concerned, and it's not a reflection on the company.

If you don't know the location of the role or worried about moving to a different location you shouldn't apply for the contract as there is never any guarantee what the interview process will be like.

I always prefer to go and see the site and meet the people. I've not accepted contracts I've been offered after meeting people face to face because frankly I didn't like them or the site.

[MarillionFan]

Word of advice.

When accepting a contract verbally always use the words 'I would like to accept subject to contract'. This gives you a caveat that if there is something in the contract you do not like then you can back out or renegotiate some terms.

Keeps them on their toes.

[strawberrysmoothie]

These things happen, as the others have said. Mark it down to experience and move on. It's not worth your time and energy -which would be better spent looking for another contract.

[adubya]

IBM pretty much exclusively use Elan and you'll be lucky to escape the full term tie in contract. I know contractors who have declined renewals at IBM gigs because of the retention thing (that and being generally mucked about).

[nomadd]

Edit :Just remembered when applying they specifed three locations to work from (IBM UK sites) which was a big help, but then realised how horrible the Washway road site was, horrid souless building.

Shiver me timbers! Only ever set foot in the Washway Road site once, in 1981. Christ I feel old. Mind you, I was a mere slip of a lad who didn't know what a computer or IBM was in those days...

To the OP: Don't sweat it. Move on. Forget about it. Had the exact same thing happen to me with PWC about 3 years ago (phone interview only, and they offered the role at the end of the call.) Turns out the contract was the most IR35 compliant pile of XXX I'd ever seen; and they expected no mere contractor to question it; ever. And they were not prepared to change a word of it; ever. So we went our separate ways. I ended up with something much better just a short while later anyhow.

[SueEllen]

Was I being unreasonable in wanting a face to face interview and being unwilling to sign for 12 months straight off when the contract was advertised as 6 months? I'd welcome other views on this.

Half of the contracts I've had have been done via telephone interviews. It's quicker and cheaper for all concerned, and it's not a reflection on the company.

If you don't know the location of the role or worried about moving to a different location you shouldn't apply for the contract as there is never any guarantee what the interview process will be like.

[contractoralan]

It is logical and reasonable if it is project based work, you simply cant have key team members flouncing mid project

We don't know for sure if it is project based work, do we?

They could have atleast discussed with the OP and made their decision, that is reasonable. A contract is a two way thing. But, normally the stronger party (in this case, the client, in buyers market) tries to impose its own agenda on the weaker party.

[quackhandle]

I was contracted to IBM for nearly two years and both 1st and 2nd interviews were on the phone , seems to be the company standard (for contractors) but am willing to be corrected. Seems odd why they've pulled the offer but it could be the agent or IBM saying "we've got a right fussy arse here, just get someone else in".

Saying that I would have queried the contract as well.

Edit :Just remembered when applying they specifed three locations to work from (IBM UK sites) which was a big help, but then realised how horrible the Washway road site was, horrid souless building.

qh

[craig1]

companies like IBM use so many contractors they have quite protracted processes to manage them, therefore once the ball is rolling it's quite hard to negotiate terms as it involves a lot of work to reverse and restart the process...therefore all negotiations need to be done up front before anything is verbally agreed.... this is true of many large companies and they will have standardised employment contracts which wont deal with specific details like working hours etc...

Unless you're going direct, you're going through an agency and your contract is with them. 99/100 iffy contracts are down to the agency trying it on rather than the client imposing a term.

[craig1]

no but the notice period thing is common on project based work, they cant have your flouncing for a higher rate mid project..

12 months, yes naughty but no bad thing, better than wanting 12 and getting 6

face to face interview as a contractor? IBM is quite hard to get into through normal routes as a -you got lucky but sounds like you've jepordised it as they are very process driven

other thing I'd say is 8 hour day is standard, you'd expect them to use their discretion over start and finish times, ie dont expect such minutae to be in the contract

so no not unreasonable but I feel you've lost this for no real good reason, unless the 12 months was completely unacceptable (and can appreciate if it is as I've turned down longer contracts involving lots of travel)

I usually push for reciprocal notice, i.e. if they want no notice from me then they need to commit to the whole thing and not have any dross clauses that you see in most contracts where they can get shot the same day if they don't like you any more. Either that or ensure the rate is a premium rate to compensate for an unequal contract.

On IBM, my personal and very subjective opinion but I wouldn't see it as "luck" securing a contract with them, more of a punishment really... There's a difference between "process driven" and "anally retentive jobsworths".

[2BIT]

Not that I say any of this is logical or reasonable of the client, but unfortunately it is buyers market now.

It is logical and reasonable if it is project based work, you simply cant have key team members flouncing mid project

[2BIT]

I disagree. If a client has offered you the role then you're the best person left in the running and I've yet to meet a client who won't wait a day or three until the contracts are negotiated and agreed. Why run the risk of getting stuck on the poor end of a contract that could have serious negative repercussions? For example, I was ready to walk away from my current role when offered because I agreed weekly invoiced, 7 day payment verbal terms yet the contract said monthly invoice, 30 days payment and they were essentially saying "trust us", it was only when I threatened to walk that they amended the contract to meet the agreed terms.

That said, I have seen examples of agencies who tell clients that a candidate has dropped out when all they've done is query a contract. So... as I mentioned above, tulip happens

companies like IBM use so many contractors they have quite protracted processes to manage them, therefore once the ball is rolling it's quite hard to negotiate terms as it involves a lot of work to reverse and restart the process...therefore all negotiations need to be done up front before anything is verbally agreed.... this is true of many large companies and they will have standardised employment contracts which wont deal with specific details like working hours etc...

[2BIT]

I have recently been offered a contract with IBM at a client site.
The advertised contract was for 6 months at a fixed daily rate. I had a 20 minute telephone interview and I was then made an offer. I did not have a face to face interview therefore I was unable to visit the client site or meet the people I would be working with/for. I had not worked for the client before. The contract meant I would be staying away from home 4 nights a week.
Once the offer was made it was for 12 months not 6, and 8 hour professional working day (therefore very little room for varying start and end times), IBM could give me notice but I could not terminate the contract. I at first accepted the contract verbally but then become uneasy after seeing the contract terms and hours.
I went back to the agent and voiced my concerns who said that she would try to arrange a face to face chat with the people who conducted the telephone interview.
Result - IBM withdrew their offer.
Was I being unreasonable in wanting a face to face interview and being unwilling to sign for 12 months straight off when the contract was advertised as 6 months? I'd welcome other views on this.

no but the notice period thing is common on project based work, they cant have your flouncing for a higher rate mid project..

12 months, yes naughty but no bad thing, better than wanting 12 and getting 6

face to face interview as a contractor? IBM is quite hard to get into through normal routes as a -you got lucky but sounds like you've jepordised it as they are very process driven

other thing I'd say is 8 hour day is standard, you'd expect them to use their discretion over start and finish times, ie dont expect such minutae to be in the contract

so no not unreasonable but I feel you've lost this for no real good reason, unless the 12 months was completely unacceptable (and can appreciate if it is as I've turned down longer contracts involving lots of travel)