Reply to: Greying out buzzwords on CVs to target CV filter software

[Robinho]

I knew someone would play devils advocate with the XML

Actually i'm more apt when it comes to XSD having used it with SQL in the past.

Anyway, the thread was a question which has been answered. Indeed i do change my technical skills list to match a job advert. Just fancied beating the agents at their own game and creating some kind of omni-potent CV.

[SueEllen]

Things is i don't like listing "given" technologies. Such as xHTML and XML which any developer worth his salt should know.

You know you can modify your CV to fit the role don't you?

So before you email your CV off you can change HTML to XHTML or add it on if the role states that's required.

If your CV is just a generic one on a job board then the agent will phone you for a quick chat or email you a job spec, and then you can modify your CV to fit.

Off course if you haven't touched the technology and have a realistic end client this doesn't matter.

[xchaotic]

Things is i don't like listing "given" technologies. Such as xHTML and XML which any developer worth his salt should know.

Surely then you would know it's XHTML.
I guess you would also know the right DTD declaration without googling it?

On one hand it's all about how you specialise and market yourself XML guru with coding skills or code guru with XML skills (I think you're the 2nd type). Sometimes it's easier to pass the agent stage with one or the other approach as they will follow the job description to the letter.
On the other hand you can pick up the right skills in no time and you don't really know which ones are going to be most needed until you land the role, so pack as many keywords as you can and do whatever is necessary to land the role and learn on the go in the first 3 days, while delivering useful stuff, maybe documenting things that you learn etc.

[northernladuk]

Desperate tactices!? You make it sound like you'd be demeaning yourself or something, when really, what does it matter?

Maybe you are right and I need to lighten up a bit, also take some notice of what people are saying about getting your CV infront of the agent but this just doesn't sit right with me at all. I don't think it is very clever and I can't see how anyone else will. I probably shouldn't be posting on a thread discussing it as well but I am sure there are other ways of doing this better so if it gets the OP thinking then it was worth posting. If the OP doesn't agree he can ignore me.

Sheer professionalism? I'm not sure how you can definitely get that through in just a CV.

By not trying to trick the agent with keyword stuffing in white text is a good start. We have a pretty dim opinion of agents but I am sure they are not stupid and certainly not up for putting candidates forward who try and buck the system and will pick the guy that demostrates the best fit for his role.

Things is i don't like listing "given" technologies. Such as xHTML and XML which any developer worth his salt should know.

But an agent won't. Can't you put a line in listing this in a single line rather than in white so he can actually read it? and......

If i had a big long list of acronym technologies (and i and many could probably force about 20 out) it'll appear to degrade the things where i am actually genuinely strong.

But I don't want some tool missing out on me because he's added HTML to his search and I haven't popped up.

... if you are strong on it you have to put it in? Thats why they have a keyword search. I don't think if it is done properly it will degrade anything. There are enough people out that there that are very skilled in just as many if not more. They stick it all on and appear in the searches. If you haven't got HTML on your CV and you are strong in it surely that defeats the point of a CV to show off your skills?

Also surely if your CV comes to him based on one of your 'white keywords'. He reads your CV and can't see it mentioned and bins you in favour of a guy that has it at the top of his CV. Yeah yeah they don't read CV's, they don't understand technology yadda yadda but he can match a spec up with some keywords in a CV.

Have two CV's out there with differing skills possibly to cover all bases with no degredation instead? Is only one visible at a time?

On a moral level i couldn't care how i beat the other guy, provided i was good enough for the role all is fair. I lost faith in humanity a long time ago.

Can't argue with this. Am not here to have a fight, this isn't for me. The OP has a post count of 4 so maybe he is new to contracting. Maybe he isn't aware contracting isn't always about being a jack of all trades and as frustrating as it is sometimes you have to re-think and target. If that assumption is wrong then am sorry for that.

[Robinho]

Things is i don't like listing "given" technologies. Such as xHTML and XML which any developer worth his salt should know.

If i had a big long list of acronym technologies (and i and many could probably force about 20 out) it'll appear to degrade the things where i am actually genuinely strong.

But I don't want some tool missing out on me because he's added HTML to his search and I haven't popped up.

Clearly these injections won't work. thankfully, i just got an interview arranged for Wednesday, though the pay ain't great.

On a moral level i couldn't care how i beat the other guy, provided i was good enough for the role all is fair. I lost faith in humanity a long time ago.

[jmo21]

I just hope this type of stuff doesn't work. I would rather beat the next guy to the role through sheer professionalism and a good CV and not have to resort to what I consider as desperate tactics (even though RC does pose a slightly valid point, though I still think you can get most of those permutations in a well done CV).

And I'd rather I was a millionaire!

Desperate tactices!? You make it sound like you'd be demeaning yourself or something, when really, what does it matter?

Sheer professionalism? I'm not sure how you can definitely get that through in just a CV. I like to think my CV sells my skills well, but I am no expert CV writer.

Getting past the agent-wall is the main thing, then impress the interviewer with all your tales of professionalism!

[northernladuk]

This question was asked a few months ago and the consensus seemed to go along with this hence, why I never tried it.

I'll see if I can find that thread - would be interestin to compare comments between the two threads.

I just hope this type of stuff doesn't work. I would rather beat the next guy to the role through sheer professionalism and a good CV and not have to resort to what I consider as desperate tactics (even though RC does pose a slightly valid point, though I still think you can get most of those permutations in a well done CV).

[Clippy]

Do people really do this? Surely if you can't get these targetted keywords in the main body of your CV you are wasting your time. So what if you managed to get you CV infront of an agent using these hidden words the experience required to go with it won't be evident so you will just get binned anyway?

They call this blackhat SEO in the webworld (or something similar) and google bans pages with it on so I wouldn't have thought it was very well respected in the CV world either surely?

This question was asked a few months ago and the consensus seemed to go along with this hence, why I never tried it.

I'll see if I can find that thread - would be interesting to compare comments between the two threads.

Edit: Unfortunately, couldn't find the thread I was referring to.

[Robinho]

They won't be using my app because only the Beta version is available at the minute, silly.

Chances are however that the class library their software is using to access the text from the word document is indeed the same or behaves similarly to the one i used, ie ignores hidden text.

[RichardCranium]

Actually, i tried the hidden text thing first and my little app for testing it didn't pick the text up.

How many agents use your little app?

[RichardCranium]

Do people really do this? Surely if you can't get these targetted keywords in the main body of your CV you are wasting your time.

Agents search for:
- project manger <-- very common typo
- project managing
- project management
- project leader <-- I've never had that title, but I want to come up in the searches
- prince II <-- wrong but common
- princeII <-- wrong but common
- prince 2 <-- wrong but common
- prince
- pricne <-- common typo
- ms project
- msproject
- microsoft project

I can't put all them in the body of my CV


And if I had worked for the BBC I'd want:
- BBC
- B.B.C.
- B B C
- British Broadcasting Corp
- British Broadcasting Corporation
- British Broadcasting Company
- media
- television
- TV

[Robinho]

Actually, i tried the hidden text thing first and my little app for testing it didn't pick the text up.

[cojak]

We're talking about agents harvesting here, not real business people...

[northernladuk]

Do people really do this? Surely if you can't get these targetted keywords in the main body of your CV you are wasting your time. So what if you managed to get you CV infront of an agent using these hidden words the experience required to go with it won't be evident so you will just get binned anyway?

They call this blackhat SEO in the webworld (or something similar) and google bans pages with it on so I wouldn't have thought it was very well respected in the CV world either surely?

[RichardCranium]

Just mark the text as 'hidden'; it is an option under text properties. It is such a common practice the agents expect it.

Put a section at the end of your CV entitled "Keywords" or "search terms" to make it clear what it is, then fill yer boots with search terms. Remember to include common typos. Then set the whole section to 'hidden'.

When the agents see the CVs, they see them as raw text on most sites. Formatting is omitted, including hidden text, so the search terms come up.

As Cojak said, only use such a CV for uploading to job sites.