Reply to: Sorry, you only have 14 years experience...

[Stan.goodvibes]

As Basho once said,

Drafted on water,
it shifts like a falling leaf,
IR35.

I think he stole that quote from the TaoDeChing

[thunderlizard]

Not if he got somebody to cover for him while he was off training. Last time I was on a full-time training course half the people there were fresh grad consultants charging their time to their clients.

As Basho once said,

Drafted on water,
it shifts like a falling leaf,
IR35.

[Fred Bloggs]

OK, so there went your IR35 defence. Well done...

You are hired to supply skills. If you don't have them and have to acquire them at the client's expense, you can't claim you were hired for them. Ergo, in Hector's eyes, you are a temporary employee...

Badoom, tishhhhhh................

[malvolio]

3 days PMP training and I billed for the time on the course too.

OK, so there went your IR35 defence. Well done...

You are hired to supply skills. If you don't have them and have to acquire them at the client's expense, you can't claim you were hired for them. Ergo, in Hector's eyes, you are a temporary employee...

[Tingles]

3 days PMP training and I billed for the time on the course too.

[BolshieBastard]

I got ISEB foundation paid for as long as I didnt bill for the days of the course and I got a 3 day cryptography course on the same basis at another company.
I felt lucky until I looked at my daily rate...

Mike

My last international banking client would have given a hefty discount on ISEB training. OK not free in this instance but still, something for virtually nothing by the client.

I'd already got the qualification so couldnt take this offer up.

[chef]

I've emailed them to point out their minor mistake, let's see if I get a reply.

Thanks for the information, I have passed this on to the resourcer that posted the role to highlight their error.

IT Director
The JM Group

hmmm

[Stan.goodvibes]

the most I've ever received was 1 days training in Glaxo's proprietary word processor

I was at Glaxo Stockley Park '95-96. I got a couple of days training paid for by Glaxo on OOP programming with the newly released VB4.

I disagree on the learning on the job thing. I have learnt all my skills while being on site, and have gone from Excel/Access VBA to VB.net and now SQL Server and SSRS,SSAS, and SSIS without ever having to put myself through training, in fact last Clientco put me through the 3 BI courses *and* paid my daily fee while I was on them!

I tend to see what the software the client using and then spend all my spare time at work trawling blogs and tech sites about that software until I know it well enough to put on my CV.

I only put my core competencies on my CV. You have to trust the agent to get you in the door for an interview so you can spout off all the required acronyms to convince the client you have ALL the skills

[Babbage]

I got ISEB foundation paid for as long as I didnt bill for the days of the course and I got a 3 day cryptography course on the same basis at another company.
I felt lucky until I looked at my daily rate...

Mike

[RichardCranium]

When a previous ClientCo switched to an obscure bit of project management software, the permies were given training but the contractors told they would have to work it out for themselves.

Realising that wasn't going to work, I asked if I could go on the course if I didn't charge for those two days but they paid for the training. As it was, a permie phoned in sick the day before the course and I got a call to say I could go.

So, in 15 years of contracting I have had 2 days of free training that cost ClientCo nothing and cost me 2 day's money.

[nomadd]

I must tell my clients that according to you, they shouldnt let me be trained up on their latest software then! And they include several multinational banks and UK utility companies.

Again, a very silly, unthoughtful reply. I never suggested you shouldn't accept free training if it was offered, just that you'd be very lucky to get it as a contractor. In my 21 years as a contractor, the most I've ever received was 1 days training in Glaxo's proprietary word processor - I kid you not. It wasn't a skill that transferred well to future roles...

If you are a contractor getting free training from your clients then that is exceptional, in my experience. I'd be very interested to hear from other contractors on here as to how much free training they are getting from their current clients. Should make interesting reading...

[BolshieBastard]

The point which continues to fly over your head is that no-one is going to pay you to learn new software as a contractor.

I must tell my clients that according to you, they shouldnt let me be trained up on their latest software then! And they include several multinational banks and UK utility companies.

[nomadd]

The point which obviously flew over your head is if you are telling clients you have work experience of applications when you havent, in the current market you are running the risk of being walked off site should they find out.

The point which continues to fly over your head is that no-one is going to pay you to learn new software as a contractor. Sure, years ago they may have, but not in today's economic climate (unless you are very, very lucky.) So, what are you going to do - sit at home and bitch about it for the rest of your life? Or do something about it? You seem to be dreaming up all manner of excuses for inaction, but none of them are convincing. I have to earn a living, so therefore don't have the luxury of sitting at home making up excuses.

And, as I've suggested, I've had no problems whatsoever working the way I do as a contractor for 21 years. The idea you are suggesting that things have suddenly changed is utter nonsense. For Christ's sake, man, just look at the rubbish that's been flooding over from India for the last ten years, stealing contract positions left, right and centre. Do you think these people honestly care about how/where they picked up their skills? The clients don't seem to be bothered, at least not based on the numbers of them they seem to employ...

Now, I've never claimed - as you seem to be suggesting - that I turn up on-site knowing nothing about the software. That would be plain stupid. What I am saying is nearly all the stuff you need as a contractor can be downloaded for free, or bought very cheaply as a dev. kit, and at that point you go away and learn it. Now, how can you be "...found out... and ...led off-site..." for actually knowing something? Simple, you can't.

Those rare cases these days of software that "costs thousands" and is unobtainable, continue to be a problem. But what the hell, just skip 'em. Most of them have their own in-house consultants anyway - who work for peanuts - so it's not a market you want to be in. I know this from bitter experience of working with many of IBMs "exclusive" products in the past; it just isn't worth the hassle: too niche, and generally too lowly paid these days. Still, in the past, I've probably blown £50k - yes £50k - on hardware, software and books for my "job" as a contractor. That's a lot of dosh, but the £2 million+ turnover that my company has had in return far outweighs even those costs. And these days, as I keep saying, you don't have to spend anything on software as it's largely free.

[BolshieBastard]

The product he mentioned, SVN, is completely free. And for those that aren't, buy them. That's what I've been doing for 20-odd years, and it's always more than paid for itself. All part of being a contractor, IMHO. What's 'ridiculous' is that you don't seem to understand that. And I've never been "out on my arse" in 21 years of contracting, because I learn the software properly.

Like I said, SVN is free. It takes 5 minutes to download and install. Learning the basics takes about 1-2 hours. And if you know CVS - like the OP claimed he did - you are more than 50% of the way there anyway (read up on the history of SVN to understand why.) What he could have learnt within 1-2 hours would have covered all of the questions he'd have come up against in 95% of the interviews that list SVN as a requirement. I had no problem getting through my interview, and no problem using the product on-site; and I use it every day. It really is that simple. Ditto Java 1.6, Maven2, Hibernate, Spring, CXF, JPA, CruiseControl, Mockito, etc., etc. - all the stuff used by Investment Banks (and elsewhere) that's paying decent money at the moment - it's all free and easy to learn if you are prepared to put the effort in. I learnt it, and I'm no rocket scientist.

EDIT: Ps. The SVN reference book is also superb and absolutely free in ebook format. Ditto the Maven2 reference guide. And the Hibernate reference guide. And the Spring reference guide. And... Notice a pattern here..?

And I said not all applications are freely available. Some applications I have worked with have licence costs of getting on for ten grand. Multiple that a number of times and its easy to see why some people cant do as you suggest.

The point which obviously flew over your head is if you are telling clients you have work experience of applications when you havent, in the current market you are running the risk of being walked off site should they find out.

The fact you havent been found out or walked off site for not being truthful in 20 years is pretty immaterial. Its only recently some client co's are now using the fact someone wasnt truthful as their cause to remove them. Dont take my word for it, Im certain you could find CUK articles to illustrate the fact.

[nomadd]

I was simply highlighting an instance where an agent was being pedantic.

Problem is, all agents are pedantic these days. And their clients!

But surely, if you have tens of skills on your CV, it starts to become a little unbelievable.

Not if you spread them around across multiple roles. I've "reskilled" quite heavily in the last 3-4 years, but I've spread it across my last 4-5 roles. And my current job is a case in point where nearly all of those skills are used on the project as it's quite a complex one (an FX system), so you might as well stick them on the cv than leave them off and miss out on a great next contract.

Also, does it not show you are more of a jack of all trades, and a master of none. Surely clients want experts in their field.

Good point, and I have considered that in the past. But the truth is, the agents and their clients seem to love cv's with "all 37 skills tick boxes checked", as you yourself pointed out at the start of this thread... More skills on the cv gets it "up" on the agents call lists, which then gets you the submissions and interviews with the clients.

As I said in a prior post, the offshore guys - half my age and a quarter of my experience - are doing it and getting work, so I've just adopted the same approach. Seems to be the nature of things these days. Less and less, although not all, contract jobs now seem to want people with a bit of everything - and that includes business skills as well as just technical ones. The more I can cram on my cv, the merrier.