Reply to: Opt out and referees?

[thunderlizard]

IR35 angle (in absence of Denny)

The end client doing reference checking is not wise, this is an indicator of being treated like a member of staff and that is nad juju IR35 wise.

Surely that's not true (unless 'nad juju' means 'has no impact on', which it may do for all I know). If you're checking personal rather than company credentials, that's a personal service pointer regardless of who makes the phone calls. Anyway, who does the reference-gathering when your agency recruits a permanent staff member for a client?


I hope your not one of those agents who points out IR35 things when it suits you, and then insists on a contract where it's cripplingly hard for the contractor to bring in other staff, or do other projects for other clients at the same time, and has to put his hand up if he wants to go to the toilet.

[cykophysh39]

I usually give references of previous agencies my company has worked for, never the end client. This is a normal requirement when doing security clearence checks too.

Why have you provided the passport scan, and why do you not have an issue with that? There requirement to ask for a passport scan is technically illegal. A photocopy of your company certificate and VAT certificate, and company bank details, is all that is required when opted out. The company is the legal entity and not you.

[NotAllThere]

Secondly, and more controversially, we found the job, we found a contractor to do the job, you had to do nothing so far, so is it really any skin off your arse to give us a reference...

Yes, because it sours the relationship between us and the referee when the referee gets a sales call. I think few of us would mind giving references if they were solely used for validation.

[DodgyAgent]

. I run one client so i can't be bothered fishing for new ones but hey, .

With one client and "cant be bothered to phish"

"Dont call us we'll call you"

[Ptarmigan]

although in this instance the job did come to you! (before you start beating me up)

Exactly! Whining like an 11 year old is very unprofessional and besides, who needs to whine when a job comes to them! No point crying over spilt milk!

[brianbetter]

addendum

although in this instance the job did come to you! (before you start beating me up)

[brianbetter]

References

To be honest, most guys give us the name of the last engineer they sat next to and the name of a mate in the same industry. I run one client so i can't be bothered fishing for new ones but hey, you might get a call about a good job because your mate gave you as a reference.

Secondly, and more controversially, we found the job, we found a contractor to do the job, you had to do nothing so far, so is it really any skin off your arse to give us a reference instead of whining like an 11 year old about it.

[malvolio]

Thanks TLG, I like the cut of your jib Sir

So, by default then I am opted in? Any disadvantage to this?

Theoretically yes, if you want to get into buiness devleopment. In practical terms, none at all; in fact there are a couple of useful bonuses.

There is a cunning Plan B floating around that in part would require a full opt out to gain some useful extra stuff, but that is long way away!

[DodgyAgent]

First, your governing bodies are made up of directors of agencies, so the quality procedures being followed are being decided by agencies to impress the majority of clients who think that quality procedures provide anything in and of themselves other than bad quality.

Second, short termism is de rigeur for the majority of your industry.

Third, if you're going to take references then don't turn it into a fishing trip. I've had contractors ask me if I'll provide a reference to an agent, only to be called up by agent asking if I need a replacement. **** off is my normal response.

Fourth, as a hiring manager of contractors, I don't bother with references. Partly because they're utterly worthless (you can't say anything bad or good without risking being sued), but mostly because if a contractor turns out to be crap, I'll fire them. It's not like they're employees with rights, is it?

Which is as it should be and which is fine until the risk management people/lawyers/HR lot get hold of "the recruitment process". Once this lot get involved then I am afraid that references, passports, DNA, sisters lovers and Uncle Tom Cobbly are all brought in to the equation. It is at this point that ISO "arent we proper big boy proper businesses" agencies then milk the whole situation in order to scam references out of people.

[Ptarmigan]

An opt out wuld be void at this stage.
You have to do it before you have been introduced to the client.
As the client introduced you to the agent it is moot.
Agent clearly doesnt understad regulatons. Explain it to them gently.
If they insist on refs then give em your client and the mate who introduced you.
You could always write a letter from your company asserting that your company has vetted quals and experience and offer to indemnifhy the agent against costs occuring if proven false.

Thanks TLG, I like the cut of your jib Sir

So, by default then I am opted in? Any disadvantage to this?

[NotAllThere]

.. I would be contacted by one of the PS of my choice from their list...

Rant about agencies and reference over, I'll respond to the OP. You noted that there's more than one agency on the list. Tell the agency you've chosen that if they don't buck their ideas up pdq, you'll choose a different one.

That's what I did when I was forced though and agency by the client, when I'd be working quite happily direct for two years, and the agency tried to make me agree to 30 days payment terms.

[NotAllThere]

Yes, I am an agent, but we are bound by our governing bodies to get references as a quality procedure, to prove we are trying to prove the background and ability of our clients. Yes, we pick up freebies from our clients but they still do spot check on references. The end client doing reference checking is not wise, this is an indicator of being treated like a member of staff and that is nad juju IR35 wise. We do speak to the guys and of course we will try and generate leads but it is not agressive. (well not im our case, but we try to be professional because shoddy working is short termism)

First, your governing bodies are made up of directors of agencies, so the quality procedures being followed are being decided by agencies to impress the majority of clients who think that quality procedures provide anything in and of themselves other than bad quality.

Second, short termism is de rigeur for the majority of your industry.

Third, if you're going to take references then don't turn it into a fishing trip. I've had contractors ask me if I'll provide a reference to an agent, only to be called up by agent asking if I need a replacement. **** off is my normal response.

Fourth, as a hiring manager of contractors, I don't bother with references. Partly because they're utterly worthless (you can't say anything bad or good without risking being sued), but mostly because if a contractor turns out to be crap, I'll fire them. It's not like they're employees with rights, is it?

[The Lone Gunman]

An opt out wuld be void at this stage.
You have to do it before you have been introduced to the client.
As the client introduced you to the agent it is moot.
Agent clearly doesnt understad regulatons. Explain it to them gently.
If they insist on refs then give em your client and the mate who introduced you.
You could always write a letter from your company asserting that your company has vetted quals and experience and offer to indemnifhy the agent against costs occuring if proven false.

[VectraMan]

Yes, I am an agent, but we are bound by our governing bodies to get references as a quality procedure,

So this applies to all agents does it? So therefore it's impossible to get a contract role through an agent without first providing references?

[DodgyAgent]

The agent wants leads, simple as that. Never give refs to agents - period. Give them direct to client if clients asks for them. BrianBetter is an agent, or very naive contractor

He is quite right (though whether anyone else is interested in "his/their" ISO standards is another matter). The clients require that references are followed up, and why on Earth should the client be expected to follow up references when they have agencies at their disposal to do the work I really dont know.