Reply to: Newbie - Advice Please

[BrilloPad]

£27,500 gross

and that is gross relative to a 30k permie deal.

[Turion]

Ok thanks for all the input, decided that I shall push for more and if they won't offer it then I think I shall just turn it down.

Push for more? That's a bit of an understatement, as you need to be aiming for at least 50% more. As the client and agent are now 'conditioned' to be expecting you to start at bargain basement rates, don't expect much luck.

Basically, sit tight in your permie job and wait for the next opportunity, and then quote a decent market rate from the onset. Selling oneself too cheaply is a common mistake for newbies entering this, or for that matter any business.

[malvolio]

By the way reiterate Bod's point how do you make the jump from £220pd to £25K? My last permie job paid £30K and by my fag packet calculations this is still less than what £220pd would pay me. Is there a decent calculator out there where you can make comparisions?

The usual basic finger-in-the-air calculation is hourly rate * 1000 = annual permie, to allow for all the things you pay for yoursef as a contractor. So 220 pd is £27.50 an hour or £27,500 gross

[BrilloPad]

Ok thanks for all the input, decided that I shall push for more and if they won't offer it then I think I shall just turn it down.

Just to clarify it was not the agent who told me about the contract length being 1 year it was the project manager who gave me the interview and runs the team. In addition they have also offered me technical training (delivered by the vendor) on the COTs system I shall be working on and modifying / customising etc. and in Sharepoint of which I have no current experience. Sweetens the deal somewhat but does it change anything?

By the way reiterate Bod's point how do you make the jump from £220pd to £25K? My last permie job paid £30K and by my fag packet calculations this is still less than what £220pd would pay me. Is there a decent calculator out there where you can make comparisions?

how many days per year do you reckon you will work? 8 days BH per year plus holidays plus sick. I usually reckon on 225 per year(45 weeks). That is £49.5 k - so I reckon you will take home around £35k.

Personally I would take the £30k permie job instead! As someone said, with contracts you can easily get a month notice. Also hapens on permie but less likely.

[Maca]

There's a lot of people who'll tell you that they're earning a lot more than they are. (Some might even be on this thread.) And for what? I knew someone who got £500/day for testing BACs software. He did it for 18 months and that was the last I heard of him. He had been on a progressive path, learning stuff as he went along, but he got greedy.

If you're really good then you can earn good money. How do you get good? Answer, you take a contract where you are going to learn something and you don't worry about job security. No-one is secure, contractor, permie or manager. The best way to get security is to accept there's no such thing. Get control by giving it away, sort of ethos.

If I was offered a low rate for a contract I really fancied I'd take it on my terms. I'd take it on a short-term basis and try to re-negotiate after the period. I'd look for something else in the meantime and if I got a better offer, but I preferred to stay put, I'd ask them to match it. You've got to be confident, consistent but not arrogant. And if you do a good job and are reliable then everything will look after itself.

While you're getting work through agencies you'll always come out second best. I've been contracting since '97 and no longer needed agencies after 2000. The key to getting rid of them is to have the confidence in yourself to move around and get some experience. They know when they've got a newbie and you just have to accept that.

[cuthill76]

Ok thanks for all the input, decided that I shall push for more and if they won't offer it then I think I shall just turn it down.

Just to clarify it was not the agent who told me about the contract length being 1 year it was the project manager who gave me the interview and runs the team. In addition they have also offered me technical training (delivered by the vendor) on the COTs system I shall be working on and modifying / customising etc. and in Sharepoint of which I have no current experience. Sweetens the deal somewhat but does it change anything?

By the way reiterate Bod's point how do you make the jump from £220pd to £25K? My last permie job paid £30K and by my fag packet calculations this is still less than what £220pd would pay me. Is there a decent calculator out there where you can make comparisions?

[Bod]

Basically you have taken a £25k a year job on. is it worth it?

How do you arrive at that figure from a rate of £220 p/d ?

[Turion]

The rate sucks. In 2002, downturn as a Java dev, my rate halved - and I still got more than that! The agent and/or the oil company will be laughing. If that's the best you can get stay permie.

Do not reduce rate due to long contract. The 12 month contract is meaningless. You can be dropped any time, so don't believe the agent bull. That said I doubt you'll last 3 months as you'll be getting calls offering the going rate of £350+ day. (I'm assuming here, that you know your stuff).

[cykophysh39]

£220 a day is peasants pay for that type of role.
Especially in the Oil industry, the agency is pulling the wool over your eyes on that one.

C#, SQL analyst programmer is £300 - $350 min. Min contract period is a laugh, you might not like the gig after a week and want to leave, your notice period will be 10 days , thats what you look at. Beware of agencies when they spout all that minimum contract period sh!t at you. Basically you have taken a £25k a year job on. is it worth it?

oil is at $117 a barrell, they can afford £350 a day,if they don't want to pay, find a gig that does and move on.

[ChimpMaster]

your contract is only as long as the notice period written in it. If the project goes tits up and they want to make reductions you'll be the first to go and notice period will be all you get at best. so 1 yr, 3 months, it's all irrelevant because you cant control the finance purse strings of the client you work for.

Correctamondo. Client recently offered me 6 month extension as opposed to previously offered 1 year. Notice period still 1 month so I said - yeah, what's the difference chief?

If they need me in 6 months' time they will extend me again. If not then it's ate logo amigos.

[chef]

your contract is only as long as the notice period written in it. If the project goes tits up and they want to make reductions you'll be the first to go and notice period will be all you get at best. so 1 yr, 3 months, it's all irrelevant because you cant control the finance purse strings of the client you work for.

[Dow Jones]

On the other hand..

On a 12/m contract, I can factor and take time off (up to 6 wks easily) for Xmas/Easter/summer without worrying, also assuming it's local and everything. Maybe I'm over cautious, but times are hard (and getting harder?)
Obviously the higher the rate, the higher to lose (but also more to gain long-term).
I wouldn't go below what I think the avge for my skillset.

[ChimpMaster]

My 'discounts' upon renewal (if they like me & vv) are:
10% for 6 m
20% for 12m
(as opposed to the 3/m std one)
so eg from £ 500, may go down to £ 400 for a 12/monther.

Discounts? You have to be kidding. Unless you work in a very commonly available skillset there shouldn't be nothing like a 20% discount. Furthermore, once you're into a client they will grow to know and love you, so long as you are good at the task. You should look to increase your rate over time.

A 20% discount is a huge compromise to make - you may as well work 2 months less in the year, you'd be better off.

[oracleslave]

OK - apart from all the other stuff (is it worth it), the guy is asking a sensible qn (v. rare for a newbie), so it deserves some answer:
Although there is no guarantee for how long it may go, 12 m for a 1st contract isn't bad esp. as things stand atm.
My 'discounts' upon renewal (if they like me & vv) are:
10% for 6 m
20% for 12m
(as opposed to the 3/m std one)
so eg from £ 500, may go down to £ 400 for a 12/monther.

Personally I never reduce rate when the contract is a long one. Increase it for a short one...absolutely.

[Dow Jones]

Length vs Rate

OK - apart from all the other stuff (is it worth it), the guy is asking a sensible qn (v. rare for a newbie), so it deserves some answer:
Although there is no guarantee for how long it may go, 12 m for a 1st contract isn't bad esp. as things stand atm.
My 'discounts' upon renewal (if they like me & vv) are:
10% for 6 m
20% for 12m
(as opposed to the 3/m std one)
so eg from £ 500, may go down to £ 400 for a 12/monther.