Reply to: Do you manage to escape IR35?

[NotAllThere]

Another thought!

Are building contractors caught by IR35.

My uncle was a building contractor and worked along side other builders on large building sites, essentially being treated like a "permie builder" or whatever the other builders were.

Surely this is the same and could be liable to IR35 rulings?

Do some research about CIS (construction industry scheme), and be glad they didn't do it to us.

[XLMonkey]

Another thought!

Are building contractors caught by IR35.

My uncle was a building contractor and worked along side other builders on large building sites, essentially being treated like a "permie builder" or whatever the other builders were.

Surely this is the same and could be liable to IR35 rulings?

well, yes in theory they could be caught by IR35, but in practice they rarely are. Most building contractors are registered self-employed, and so pay self-employed NI and tax. Where there is a tax dispute, it is usually because they haven't paid enough NI. However, if you are self-employed in this way, then HMRC would pursue the main contractor for any outstanding NI.

IT contractors cannot generally operate as self-employed as the clients want to avoid taking on the NI liability that they would have in the scenario above. That's why most operate through a limited company, and that's where IR35 comes in....

[Fran]

Another thought!

Are building contractors caught by IR35.

My uncle was a building contractor and worked along side other builders on large building sites, essentially being treated like a "permie builder" or whatever the other builders were.

Surely this is the same and could be liable to IR35 rulings?

[Fran]

I dont rely on a few factors, I think of the whole package. My contract is IR35 friendly, but I also do a common sense self appraisal.. i.e do I honestly see myself as a permanent around my place of work. The answer is always no. I get treated like a contractor, I get excluded from company events, I work days that permies got off (and paid for) like the 24th, I dont do appraisal team meetins, and alsways ask to leave whenh the team meetings start talking about team objectives. I dont partake of team training exercises. I very rarely stay in contracts longer than 6-9 months, I dont want to, I am not looking for stability and safety in a career.

Its not about ticking a certain amount of boxes, as you will never know if you ahve ticked enough until the tax man comes knocking. Its more about believing and acting like you are not an employee.

Same here, however, do you find client give you odd looks. a lot of contractors seem happy to act as permies, so when you start doing all this stuff they think you are being difficult!

[beaker]

How to escape IR35:

Run

[Denny]

The only way you will definitely be outside IR35 is when IR35 is abolished. You can pretend not to be a full-time employee by using the tactics you describe but if you work for a client for any length of time you are liable to be caught by IR35.
Permanent employees also work at home using their own laptops you know.

The overall impression of how you run your business and gain clients and market yourselves legitimately is also a huge pointer toward or away from ir35compliance for every contract you do, not just the particulars regarding the engagements your work on.

Apart from the usual no MOO, RoS, and no D&C essentials that cement the intention to be ir35 compliant I try and get a list of deliverables written down in a schedule of works or in the contract.

I don't buy all this stuff about not attending client socials with my private clients. I have been invited to Xmas parties and other summer parties and so on, but I still feel totally outside ir35 because other contractors are also invited to them. When times are a bit lean and only staff are allowed to attend these events, as has happened with one client of mine in recent years because of cost cutting, then I don't get invited either. That should prove my point to the HMRC should I ever be investigated. One journalist freelancer friend I have is clearly outside ir35 but still has all his business expenses paid upfront by clients who want him to attend business conferences abroad or do interviews to write articles and so on. So this isn't at all cut and dried either.

[Bagpuss]

I find burning dead badgers on a Sunday while sticking needles in an effigy of Dawn Primarolo gets me around the legislation.

Others find getting advice from the PCG is a little more contemporary.

[VectraMan]

When on site if you act like an employee and are treated like an employee then you are an employee. IR35 BANG BANG

How do you act like an employee? Turn up looking miserable every day?

Honestly I don't work any differently now than I did as a permie. I always had a great deal of autonomy, especially when I was in charge of the department. As long as I did the work and didn't take the piss there were no strict hours, and I had office keys so could go in anytime anyway. I'd work at home sometimes, and get to choose when I did, and although there were holiday forms it was up to me to decide when I and the people in my team took time off. And I brought my own skills and experience to the job; never had any training.

Seems to me that any permie in a senior position with responsibility will probably pass the D&C test.

[malvolio]

When on site if you act like an employee and are treated like an employee then you are an employee. IR35 BANG BANG

OK, so I'm on site running a whole IT department for 9 months while the real manager s off doing something else. I'm not an employee and I'm not caught by IR35. Go figure...

[fridge]

When on site if you act like an employee and are treated like an employee then you are an employee. IR35 BANG BANG

[NotAllThere]

Exactly. I just couldn't be bothered to repeat the details for the umpteenth time.

[TheFaQQer]

if you work for a client for any length of time you are liable to be caught by IR35.

wrong.

Isn't there an example of a successful defence of someone who worked with the same client for over 10 years? Length of time has nothing to do with it.

[NotAllThere]

... if you work for a client for any length of time you are liable to be caught by IR35...

wrong.

[tay]

I dont rely on a few factors, I think of the whole package. My contract is IR35 friendly, but I also do a common sense self appraisal.. i.e do I honestly see myself as a permanent around my place of work. The answer is always no. I get treated like a contractor, I get excluded from company events, I work days that permies got off (and paid for) like the 24th, I dont do appraisal team meetins, and alsways ask to leave whenh the team meetings start talking about team objectives. I dont partake of team training exercises. I very rarely stay in contracts longer than 6-9 months, I dont want to, I am not looking for stability and safety in a career.

Its not about ticking a certain amount of boxes, as you will never know if you ahve ticked enough until the tax man comes knocking. Its more about believing and acting like you are not an employee.

[hyperD]

It sounds like lots of standard contractors also escape IR35, is this true? How do you manage that, ...

I find burning dead badgers on a Sunday while sticking needles in an effigy of Dawn Primarolo gets me around the legislation.

Others find getting advice from the PCG is a little more contemporary.