Reply to: SC and spent convictions?

[malvolio]

I just noticed this response a year later and wow bud, you are a bit of a tight ass. It was the German cop that was saying the knucjkledusters were cool not me. They were souvenirs from Bangkok and I was taking them to my new house in greece to hang them on the wall. I did get my SC clearance after about 3 months. A guy sitting across from me started on the same day. He never got an answer and stayed on contract with the rest of us util the project was cancelled just as the financial crisis was about to happen. Ever couple of weeks he would wonder aloud why he never got his clearance back. As he had a male partner, we all just assumed he got caught in a bath-house once in his past and the security guys were holding onto his file for a laugh.

What you don't know I and a few others worked with the Cabinet Office on the whole issue of clearance from contractors and trying to make them see what a balls-up they were making of it. If you look up the CO guidance on hiring into SC-level roles, that is largely our work. Shame there is no way to make the agencies apply them....

That aside, You will never know why clearance is being withheld. One colleague of mine discovered after nearly a year that his ex-wife had a badly overdrawn Credit Card in his name; paid that off and clearance appeared a few days later. Another would never get cleared, since he was a product of the old Irish orphanage system so didn't have a birth certificate. Another guy wrote the software that drove MOD firewalls despite both his parents being KGB workers and him having Lithuanian citizenship; in his case, he could develop the software, but never got anywhere near seeing the data he was protecting.

It's mare's nest. People keep asking what look like simple questions, which is fair enough. Sadly, there are no simple answers.

[herman_g]

Of course it's fuzzy. If it weren't the system would be wide open. Which is why we tend to give fuzzy answers.

But if you think brass knuckledusters are cool, you maybe need to sit and have a think.

I just noticed this response a year later and wow bud, you are a bit of a tight ass. It was the German cop that was saying the knucjkledusters were cool not me. They were souvenirs from Bangkok and I was taking them to my new house in greece to hang them on the wall. I did get my SC clearance after about 3 months. A guy sitting across from me started on the same day. He never got an answer and stayed on contract with the rest of us util the project was cancelled just as the financial crisis was about to happen. Ever couple of weeks he would wonder aloud why he never got his clearance back. As he had a male partner, we all just assumed he got caught in a bath-house once in his past and the security guys were holding onto his file for a laugh.

[malvolio]

I got SC with a spent caution for criminal damage.

Presumably not for a role that involves close involvement with the general public?

It's been said many times, SC is not a single thing or a badge of any kind, it is a specific risk assessment for a given role. What they consider important will vary accordingly.

[TheDude]

I got SC with a spent caution for criminal damage.

[malvolio]

Not my advice. Just highlighting the fuzziness of the whole process. Regarding boarding an aircraft: the knuckles were in my checked luggage which was routinely x-rayed by the police.

Of course it's fuzzy. If it weren't the system would be wide open. Which is why we tend to give fuzzy answers.

But if you think brass knuckledusters are cool, you maybe need to sit and have a think.

[herman_g]

So your advice is to tell lies, or omit to tell the truth, which is the same thing, when dealing with national security. They are not omniscient, if you don't tell them something they may not know about it (or, scary thought, they may do... the police may have closed the file but that doesn't mean there isn't one on the system).

OK...

But in what universe do you live in where you think you can board an aircraft with a dangerous weapon?

Not my advice. Just highlighting the fuzziness of the whole process. Regarding boarding an aircraft: the knuckles were in my checked luggage which was routinely x-rayed by the police.

[northernladuk]

When I did SC Clearance for Bank of England (2008), the security guy was available for questions.

He told me it's all about honesty and the only things they cared about was bank fraud and terrorism.

I had declared a little issue with oregano (9 years old) and there was no issue whatsoever.

The security guy wasn't there one day so I aked my manager whether I should mention the souvinir brass knuckles from Thailand that were confiscated leaving Frankfurt Airport in 2004 (the cop who discovered them put one on his hand and repeatedly punched his other repeating "Kool, mann, kool" - I was told the file would be immidiately closed by the prosecuter). "You don't want to tell them about that" was her response. So 100% honesty wasn't really so important.

Declared oregano infraction, undeclared brass knuckles. SC Clearance no problem.

But you've got to use some common sense. Minor problems like confiscated items, particularly in Germany is hardly an issue so there is honesty and their is airing your dirty washing needlesly. The clue is often in the questions, usually around being in trouble with the UK police, having a conviction or whatever. That situation doesn't really meet any criteria. The only thing that can come of that is you look a complete moron for buying souviner knuckle dusters and then thinking it's acceptable to bring them in to any country.

What she probably meant is you don't want to tell them about it because it makes you look really stupid and although won't affect your SC it doesn't make you look great as a person. If you can't work out what you can and take on a plane and break their security policy, what are you going to do with the clients security policy. Ignore that as well?

So yes, 100% honesty about the topics required. Not about being a bellend.

[malvolio]

When I did SC Clearance for Bank of England (2008), the security guy was available for questions.

He told me it's all about honesty and the only things they cared about was bank fraud and terrorism.

I had declared a little issue with oregano (9 years old) and there was no issue whatsoever.

The security guy wasn't there one day so I aked my manager whether I should mention the souvinir brass knuckles from Thailand that were confiscated leaving Frankfurt Airport in 2004 (the cop who discovered them put one on his hand and repeatedly punched his other repeating "Kool, mann, kool" - I was told the file would be immidiately closed by the prosecuter). "You don't want to tell them about that" was her response. So 100% honesty wasn't really so important.

Declared oregano infraction, undeclared brass knuckles. SC Clearance no problem.

So your advice is to tell lies, or omit to tell the truth, which is the same thing, when dealing with national security. They are not omniscient, if you don't tell them something they may not know about it (or, scary thought, they may do... the police may have closed the file but that doesn't mean there isn't one on the system).

OK...

But in what universe do you live in where you think you can board an aircraft with a dangerous weapon?

[herman_g]

When I did SC Clearance for Bank of England (2008), the security guy was available for questions.

He told me it's all about honesty and the only things they cared about was bank fraud and terrorism.

I had declared a little issue with oregano (9 years old) and there was no issue whatsoever.

The security guy wasn't there one day so I aked my manager whether I should mention the souvinir brass knuckles from Thailand that were confiscated leaving Frankfurt Airport in 2004 (the cop who discovered them put one on his hand and repeatedly punched his other repeating "Kool, mann, kool" - I was told the file would be immidiately closed by the prosecuter). "You don't want to tell them about that" was her response. So 100% honesty wasn't really so important.

Declared oregano infraction, undeclared brass knuckles. SC Clearance no problem.

[scarednewbie]

ladymuck
No there is nothing in my contract (it's a Fixed term till end of this year) that says anything about convictions or even change in circumstances.

Obviously, if I was going to get an actual sentencing for Breach of Peace in Scotland then that changes things... which is unlikely!

SueEllen when you declare convictions, spent or not, do they ask more questions about it and how would you respond to it?

[ladymuck]

Hello there,

Long Term Lurker First time Poster. Firstly, I am glad I have come across this thread as it has helped me reduce some anxiety over the court case that I am dealing with.

I am 27 years old and I am on the Autism Spectrum.

Essentially, in 2 weeks time, I have to attend court in Scotland for a breach of the peace (Section 38) where it is likely I will get a court fine as my conviction. AFAIK, the court fine then gets spent in 12 months according to this: https://www.gov.scot/publications/di...-1974/pages/1/

My question is that, since I am working in the private sector and I managed to clear the DBS in order to get access to one of the systems as an IT Administrator, would I need to declare this to my employer given that it will get spent in 12 months.

Also, I managed to SC in the past working on a public sector project but working in private sector, would the court fine from Breach of Peace Scotland affect my chances of getting SC or even DV?

Many Thanks in Advance. Peace

Whether you need to declare the conviction depends on what it says in your employment contract. Usually there's a clause about changes to your circumstances and, one could argue, that a new conviction is a change of circumstance. How well do you get on with your line manager? It might be worth having a chat with them to get their advice. Does HR have an intranet page with a FAQ describing what needs to be declared?

[SueEllen]

Hello there,

Long Term Lurker First time Poster. Firstly, I am glad I have come across this thread as it has helped me reduce some anxiety over the court case that I am dealing with.

I am 27 years old and I am on the Autism Spectrum.

Essentially, in 2 weeks time, I have to attend court in Scotland for a breach of the peace (Section 38) where it is likely I will get a court fine as my conviction. AFAIK, the court fine then gets spent in 12 months according to this: https://www.gov.scot/publications/di...-1974/pages/1/

My question is that, since I am working in the private sector and I managed to clear the DBS in order to get access to one of the systems as an IT Administrator, would I need to declare this to my employer given that it will get spent in 12 months.

Nobody can answer your questions as it depends on what the individual organisations are looking for.

So for example I've had enhanced DBS checks to work and volunteer with children. The individual organisations weren't interested if I had convictions for theft but would have unlikely to employ/let me volunteer as they have plenty of people without convictions who would have been able to do those roles.

I've had enhanced DBS checks to volunteer with vulnerable people and if I had any convictions at all I would not have been allowed to due to the nature of the volunteering.

I have had standard DBS checks to check for criminal convictions and depending on the nature of the criminal convictions I would be allowed to do certain roles.

Also, I managed to SC in the past working on a public sector project but working in private sector, would the court fine from Breach of Peace Scotland affect my chances of getting SC or even DV?

Just declare it. If the individual organisation aren't bothered they will clear you.

[scarednewbie]

Hello there,

Long Term Lurker First time Poster. Firstly, I am glad I have come across this thread as it has helped me reduce some anxiety over the court case that I am dealing with.

I am 27 years old and I am on the Autism Spectrum.

Essentially, in 2 weeks time, I have to attend court in Scotland for a breach of the peace (Section 38) where it is likely I will get a court fine as my conviction. AFAIK, the court fine then gets spent in 12 months according to this: https://www.gov.scot/publications/di...-1974/pages/1/

My question is that, since I am working in the private sector and I managed to clear the DBS in order to get access to one of the systems as an IT Administrator, would I need to declare this to my employer given that it will get spent in 12 months.

Also, I managed to SC in the past working on a public sector project but working in private sector, would the court fine from Breach of Peace Scotland affect my chances of getting SC or even DV?

Many Thanks in Advance. Peace

[Mephisto]

Over the years the consensus here and elsewhere has been that it's about honesty and not necessarily the crime. Also it's likely complex, involving consultation with the police, probation, prison etc. if applicable. Wasn't it on the original thread some serious bird serving convictions had got through SC and possibly DV?

There will always be certain offences that will make it near impossible, such as a convicted terrorist trying to secure CTC, but as said I don't think it's an auto no in a lot of other circumstances, unless you hide things that then come to light.

[malvolio]

there is no way to know in advance...

Although if it was me, and I had got SC without declaring it, I would stay schtum.
At the moment there is plausible deniability.

Perhaps declare it at renewal time, but don't rock the boat.

Hmmm... Not declaring is a breach of the OSA, which would be instant dismissal if they find out (which they may well do: clearances are kept under review, it's not a one and done). However it depends if this is a Ministry clearance or a commercial one, the latter being rather less rigorous on the whole (one reason why you get re-vetted if you have one and then join a Department, corporate clearances are not held in high regard)

Your (their) safest option would be to fess up now and explain why. They are testing for honesty and integrity after all...