Reply to: Contingent Work - Contracts - Temp-to-Perm

[SussexSeagull]

I'm the same, but wisdom and experience tells us that even when work is there they still can cut the contract short or not renew. Madness sometimes but it happens. I do get frustrated when there is still a good outcome to be achieved but politics/budget screw it up. Hate leaving work unfinished.

Great thing about thinking like Sussex is you get a momentary feeling of elation every time the renewal comes through and then it's back to work. Expecting a renewal is 'meh' when you get it and utter disappointment when you don't.

I should have said work available and they are willing to pay you to do it but you take my point.

Don't get me wrong, I preferred being renewed to not being renewed but other than the obvious doing the work well I am not sure there is much you can do about other factors so why worry about it?

[northernladuk]

Unless it is something lasting a week I barely take any notice of length of contract anymore. If the work is still there then they will renew you and if it isn't you will be soon gone.

I'm the same, but wisdom and experience tells us that even when work is there they still can cut the contract short or not renew. Madness sometimes but it happens. I do get frustrated when there is still a good outcome to be achieved but politics/budget screw it up. Hate leaving work unfinished.

Great thing about thinking like Sussex is you get a momentary feeling of elation every time the renewal comes through and then it's back to work. Expecting a renewal is 'meh' when you get it and utter disappointment when you don't.

[SussexSeagull]

Unless it is something lasting a week I barely take any notice of length of contract anymore. If the work is still there then they will renew you and if it isn't you will be soon gone.

[hungry_hog]

Been working on 6 month contracts for last 15 years, various clients mostly FS

Usually get extended

Current one is 8 months which is unusually long

It's semantics anyway as client can get rid of you (with notice), or not provide work (without notice)

[northernladuk]

Fair enough - maybe it's me being a little too paranoid.

You most certainly are. If this is the only type of work you are seeing then something is definitely wrong because these crop up very rarely in most of our experience and they are the arse end of contracting if you could even call it contracting. Why are you spending any time on them?

Example 1 I've had a few job offers over the past few weeks but going through a Employment Resource Model - one for contracting and one for permanent, the contracting one is through a TWA where you are essentially a TWA with them but employed through the Umbrella company. The hiring company has an agreement with the Temp Work Agency as part of the AWR terms that they can offer the TWA a perm contract after a period of time, typically 6 months - clearly the AW can say they are not interested and the original T&C contract either improved, renewed or ended.

If you are getting JOB offers then it's not surprising they are going through an Employment Resource Model. You are a contractor, you don't apply for jobs. Maybe if you think like a contractor and use the correct terminology all this might be a bit clearer.
So that example isn't a contractor really. It's a glorified onboarding process. As soon as the role description says temp to perm or anything like that you move on. It's not for us.

Example 2
I've noticed consultancy firms operating fixed term PAYE Employment Resource Models, which is typically a contractor role (agency finds you work/assignments) but they pay you a decent PAYE Salary (The agencies are creaming too much margin) - but the same AWR applies - you are an agency worker and the client / hiring company can offer to take you on perm once your assignment completes.
So essentially, although it may not be crystal clear to the "candidate/employee" you are an AW and suffer from the AWR?

I don't know why you are so hung up on the AWR. Focus on the role, decide if it's for you or not. Forget the AWR.
But yes, the above happens from time to time. Barclays were using Hyphen to get contractors to work for them and Hyphen hoover up the contracts. Horrible model but it's been going on for years. Fair play to the agencies to trick contractors in to taking the roles, seems a smart move, but again it's not for us. As soon as you get a sniff this is what it is you move on.

Dunno why you are spending so much time worrying about two models that just are not contracting. If it's not a straight forward outside or inside gig where you come in and deliver something and then leave then move on. No point worrying about all this when you aren't going to take them.

[ladymuck]

Fair enough - maybe it's me being a little too paranoid.

Example 1 I've had a few job offers over the past few weeks but going through a Employment Resource Model - one for contracting and one for permanent, the contracting one is through a TWA where you are essentially a TWA with them but employed through the Umbrella company. The hiring company has an agreement with the Temp Work Agency as part of the AWR terms that they can offer the TWA a perm contract after a period of time, typically 6 months - clearly the AW can say they are not interested and the original T&C contract either improved, renewed or ended.


Example 2
I've noticed consultancy firms operating fixed term PAYE Employment Resource Models, which is typically a contractor role (agency finds you work/assignments) but they pay you a decent PAYE Salary (The agencies are creaming too much margin) - but the same AWR applies - you are an agency worker and the client / hiring company can offer to take you on perm once your assignment completes.


So essentially, although it may not be crystal clear to the "candidate/employee" you are an AW and suffer from the AWR?

Not experienced either of those.

You must be looking under some very strange rocks.

[hugebrain]

Nearly all contract roles are inside IR35, very few are out and even then it's suspect determination.

Don’t be such a Debbie Downer, there are plenty of outside roles out there. Not sure why you think the determination would be suspect, but if it is you are probably not on the hook. If you are it’s no worse than if you had caved in anyway.

Not sure if I should encourage my fellow contractors to hold the line or just let the losers lose.

Six months contracts are fine and usually get extended.

[ItsInTheGame]

Just trying to understand where you are coming from. It's not until post 6 you mentioned inside and now quoting legislation that only affects Umbrellas yet this isn't in the Umbrella section. Some of the things you are saying don't appear to have any context and I don't agree with them so I'm confused where you are coming from sometimes.

I don't agree 90% of roles are inside. I don't believe many people at all get asked to go perm. I rarely see 12 month contracts. AWR has never been a factor in my work.
So just having to dig in to your situation to understand where you are coming from. Nothing you've said even remotely resembles my experience so not sure if you've got a valid point I'm missing or you are not doing the same as most contractors.

I'm not the brightest so could be just me that's a bit confused what you are trying to get to.

Fair enough - maybe it's me being a little too paranoid.

Example 1 I've had a few job offers over the past few weeks but going through a Employment Resource Model - one for contracting and one for permanent, the contracting one is through a TWA where you are essentially a TWA with them but employed through the Umbrella company. The hiring company has an agreement with the Temp Work Agency as part of the AWR terms that they can offer the TWA a perm contract after a period of time, typically 6 months - clearly the AW can say they are not interested and the original T&C contract either improved, renewed or ended.


Example 2
I've noticed consultancy firms operating fixed term PAYE Employment Resource Models, which is typically a contractor role (agency finds you work/assignments) but they pay you a decent PAYE Salary (The agencies are creaming too much margin) - but the same AWR applies - you are an agency worker and the client / hiring company can offer to take you on perm once your assignment completes.


So essentially, although it may not be crystal clear to the "candidate/employee" you are an AW and suffer from the AWR?

[northernladuk]

Yeah, anything Inside IR35 or anyone going through Umbrella or PAYE - 90% of roles out there atm. Not sure what your point is?

Just trying to understand where you are coming from. It's not until post 6 you mentioned inside and now quoting legislation that only affects Umbrellas yet this isn't in the Umbrella section. Some of the things you are saying don't appear to have any context and I don't agree with them so I'm confused where you are coming from sometimes.

I don't agree 90% of roles are inside. I don't believe many people at all get asked to go perm. I rarely see 12 month contracts. AWR has never been a factor in my work.
So just having to dig in to your situation to understand where you are coming from. Nothing you've said even remotely resembles my experience so not sure if you've got a valid point I'm missing or you are not doing the same as most contractors.

I'm not the brightest so could be just me that's a bit confused what you are trying to get to.

[ladymuck]

Yeah, anything Inside IR35 or anyone going through Umbrella or PAYE - 90% of roles out there atm. Not sure what your point is?

That's not always an agency worker.

[ItsInTheGame]

You've got to be careful with the terminology about what an agency worker is.

https://www.qdoscontractor.com/tax/g...er-regulations

Yeah, anything Inside IR35 or anyone going through Umbrella or PAYE - 90% of roles out there atm. Not sure what your point is?

[northernladuk]

SC Cleared Solution/Technical Architect. If you are an agency worker you are all suspect to this AWR agreement.

You've got to be careful with the terminology about what an agency worker is.

https://www.qdoscontractor.com/tax/g...er-regulations

[ItsInTheGame]

What is it you do? Sounds like you are fishing in completely the wrong pond. We are specialists providing services the client either don't have. All the terminology above such as Contingent and Temp don't sound like these are contract roles. I've never seen this in any of my gigs. What you are describing above isn't contract work. It's a method of recruiting perms with a cheeky no risk probation period.

Something is wrong if all the roles you are a looking at are like this. I'd expect this more in first or second line service desk roles, not professional contracting.

SC Cleared Solution/Technical Architect. If you are an agency worker you are all suspect to this AWR agreement.

[northernladuk]

Why would they need to do that? Permies can be fired at will inside the first two years.

Yes but no. There are still things they can do. They can still bring a case for Automatically unfair dismissal, Unlawful discrimination or Breach of contract. If they are that pissed of the can make trouble under those headings. It's covered in the link below.

https://www.davidsonmorris.com/dismi...years-service/

So yes you can but it's not without it's pitfalls so just taking them on as contractor is much much easier.

[Peoplesoft bloke]

It's a method of recruiting perms with a cheeky no risk probation period.

Why would they need to do that? Permies can be fired at will inside the first two years.