Reply to: Experiences with Accenture

[hungry_hog]

My experiences

2000
Rang me up at 8am Saturday morning when I was at Uni to arrange interview.
Went to said interview. The day before the interview they had renamed to Accenture. I kept giving the wrong name (AC), didn't go down well. Dinged.

Seemed to think they were at the same 'level' as Mckinsey but students had them as a reserve choice - they were targeting the Bain, BCG type firms.

2012
Fast forward 12 years, on a project with them. On a reg project at a major British Bank and a team of contractors quit rather than work with them.

[rocktronAMP]

The fact remains Contractors need a pension as well so the 10% inflation is as true for us as anyone in permanent employment. As for Private Health Insurance, I know people who had minor operations on it and found it useful.

Most of us on here have weighed up the pros and cons and decided the contracting life is for us. However it has to be acknowledged there are advantages to permanent employment, not least of which you aren't looking for a new job every six months or so.

Conversation has verved off the Accenture experience, but I agree with the contracting part.

I would have loved to stay a Limited contractor and do the Rich Dad, Poor Dad ( Rich Mum , Poor Mum - inclusive) intent: pay dividends before tax and small salary; and not be taxed at source.

Unfortunately, that UK viability of PSCs crumbled (and I know that sme HMRC bods lurk the list), OffPayroll Worker rules, Fixed Term and Inside IR 35 contract decimated the majority of market opportunities. We, (pre-2020) contractors, all had a nice tidy plan to pay back credit card debt, pay car PCPs, leasing and mortgages earlier, including any second and holiday homes, university and school fees much earlier than we expected, but the new rules and regulation tuliped it up.

Yes there are benefits to be a permie, but Sussex is absolutely 100% right, salaries have stagnated and now we will see cost of inflation and retail price indices increase because of the Brexit, the pandemic and economy. Latter still is in the doldrums since 2008, when Lehman Bros and many others fell over a cliff.

Enjoy your Saturday.

[SussexSeagull]

I would rather have the money in the bank and in hand than any of those.

what good is a pension when we have probably 10% inflation with no end in sight?
private health insurance? you get sent back to NHS if you have real issues. the only difference is that the person in the reception has better teeth.
.

The fact remains Contractors need a pension as well so the 10% inflation is as true for us as anyone in permanent employment. As for Private Health Insurance, I know people who had minor operations on it and found it useful.

Most of us on here have weighed up the pros and cons and decided the contracting life is for us. However it has to be acknowledged there are advantages to permanent employment, not least of which you aren't looking for a new job every six months or so.

[SussexSeagull]

what are we talking about here? perm salaries have always been piss pour.

sure you could escalate the grease pole but how long does it take? how much better would it get? even in a top role today, you would be far off from a decent contract rate.

in the past maybe you could have afforded a house out of a perm role, (S/SE) now you only have to do contracting and have successive contracts to be able to save for a deposit.

permdom has always been - being paid enough to not complain but not enough so you could afford a life outside of work. It's more about control than actual meritocracy.

Put simply if your parents helped put you through University, helped with a deposit for a house then eventually leave you an inheritance there is less incentive to go out on a limb and become a contractor. Speaking from personal experience if I went back into permanent employment the money wouldn't be much better than when I left it in the last century so becoming a contractor was a quicker way to earn more money as opposed to hoping I hadn't annoyed my boss that year, got behind his favourites in the peer ranking and get a 4% salary rise.

[GigiBronz]

I didn't say benefits, I said hidden benefits: insurances, pension provision and contribution, office support, HR support, training, sick pay, holidays, equipment, maintenance, licences, share schemes related savings plans, blah blah... That lot add around 100% to your salary. Add another third for 3 month s notice. It all adds up. We'll ignore office space and heat and light since a lot of contractors get to share those, and right now a lot of people don't get them anyway but work from home instead.

Job security is not what it was, but it is still real; you can't be thrown out the door immediately (well, short of banging the receptionist on the front desk, and perhaps not even then.).

For the rest of your argument, meh. I for one remain unconvinced by your thesis.

I would rather have the money in the bank and in hand than any of those.

what good is a pension when we have probably 10% inflation with no end in sight?
private health insurance? you get sent back to NHS if you have real issues. the only difference is that the person in the reception has better teeth.

its not my thesis, there are way smarter people than me that have though of it. it is as it is.

for the past 50 years, we've had the productivity increase 5x fold. everything is automated, check agriculture sector to see how much productivity has increased there.

people are ever more educated, they've done their deed, went to uni, landed a skilled job.

salaries have not increased for the past 25 years. a gas station attendant 30y ago in the US could feed and house a family of 4. today... if you are on slightly above min wage, you get benefit top-ups. you eat garbage and struggle from month to month.

I do not think all this is random. And the sad part is that most of the people do not have the courage to take the truth in.

Also check out ' the great reset' that I believe is very real. we are transitioning slowly in a new world. and the new world has nothing to do to what is says on the tin.

[malvolio]

yep, here goes the dilusion and why I think that this forum is manned by gov agencies. big tech doing the work of brainwashing people into complacency and submission.

all the perks that come with permi life, are useless, they are designed to make people comfortable and take the financial side out of the equation.
"you are taken care, of: me pension, me salary, me golden years, me holiday" in reality you won't have enough of none of those.

you have no rights before 2 years in a perm role. the pay seldom affords you to be more than a few months from living on the street.
you a bit harder to fire but not impossible.

contractors exist most of the time because companies cannot get people to switch jobs for a £500 difference when only the relocation cost would eat that extra difference for a few months. most people switch jobs when they've had enough of it.

people say we live in a democracy and meritocracy. that is nonsense.

we live in a class system that keeps the working class in working class and apart from a few roles that bring actual contribution to society, a lot of them are also about keeping people busy so that they do not create troubles for the rulling class.

David Graeber - Bulltulip Jobs best describes this. But I am sure plenty of people think of me that i am conspiracy theorist now. Only that the conspiracy is reality.

I didn't say benefits, I said hidden benefits: insurances, pension provision and contribution, office support, HR support, training, sick pay, holidays, equipment, maintenance, licences, share schemes related savings plans, blah blah... That lot add around 100% to your salary. Add another third for 3 month s notice. It all adds up. We'll ignore office space and heat and light since a lot of contractors get to share those, and right now a lot of people don't get them anyway but work from home instead.

Job security is not what it was, but it is still real; you can't be thrown out the door immediately (well, short of banging the receptionist on the front desk, and perhaps not even then.).

For the rest of your argument, meh. I for one remain unconvinced by your thesis.

[GigiBronz]

Ah, someone else who apparently doesn't understand cost of employment and hidden benefits.

If you analyse the bottom line properly you will discover that good permies cost the company about the same or slightly more than a good contractor. The contractor may retain more of that sum (although that is becoming increasingly hard to do effectively. the major differentiator in the cost equation is that permies are rarely more than 80% effective, bang per buck, while contractors are (or should be) 100% effective.

yep, here goes the dilusion and why I think that this forum is manned by gov agencies. big tech doing the work of brainwashing people into complacency and submission.

all the perks that come with permi life, are useless, they are designed to make people comfortable and take the financial side out of the equation.
"you are taken care, of: me pension, me salary, me golden years, me holiday" in reality you won't have enough of none of those.

you have no rights before 2 years in a perm role. the pay seldom affords you to be more than a few months from living on the street.
you a bit harder to fire but not impossible.

contractors exist most of the time because companies cannot get people to switch jobs for a £500 difference when only the relocation cost would eat that extra difference for a few months. most people switch jobs when they've had enough of it.

people say we live in a democracy and meritocracy. that is nonsense.

we live in a class system that keeps the working class in working class and apart from a few roles that bring actual contribution to society, a lot of them are also about keeping people busy so that they do not create troubles for the rulling class.

David Graeber - Bulltulip Jobs best describes this. But I am sure plenty of people think of me that i am conspiracy theorist now. Only that the conspiracy is reality.

[malvolio]

what are we talking about here? perm salaries have always been piss pour.

sure you could escalate the grease pole but how long does it take? how much better would it get? even in a top role today, you would be far off from a decent contract rate.

in the past maybe you could have afforded a house out of a perm role, (S/SE) now you only have to do contracting and have successive contracts to be able to save for a deposit.

permdom has always been - being paid enough to not complain but not enough so you could afford a life outside of work. It's more about control than actual meritocracy.

Ah, someone else who apparently doesn't understand cost of employment and hidden benefits.

If you analyse the bottom line properly you will discover that good permies cost the company about the same or slightly more than a good contractor. The contractor may retain more of that sum (although that is becoming increasingly hard to do effectively. the major differentiator in the cost equation is that permies are rarely more than 80% effective, bang per buck, while contractors are (or should be) 100% effective.

[GigiBronz]

I agree that Contracting certainly used to be a way for people who were actually very good at what they do but maybe lacked the connections to get on in permanent employment to improve themselves financially.

what are we talking about here? perm salaries have always been piss pour.

sure you could escalate the grease pole but how long does it take? how much better would it get? even in a top role today, you would be far off from a decent contract rate.

in the past maybe you could have afforded a house out of a perm role, (S/SE) now you only have to do contracting and have successive contracts to be able to save for a deposit.

permdom has always been - being paid enough to not complain but not enough so you could afford a life outside of work. It's more about control than actual meritocracy.

[NotAllThere]

Has anyone had any bad experiences with these guys.

Have been offered a decent rate but it looks like I would be responsible for a team of junior developers and Having worked with a few similar firms in the past they can set the bar rather low.

I've never had a good experience with them. Starting with first interaction in 1999, ending with the last one end of 2020.

[SussexSeagull]

Although this is a professional forum where I imagine most of the readers are earning at least £70K a year (200 days at £350 a day is not an unreasonable expectation), which is a different world from zero hours precariat service industry workers.

Yes, borrowing from one of my favourite authors Derrick Jensen, we are all in the business of selling our fingers and toes for money. But without disclosing personal details about my own circumstances, I feel privileged to have the opportunities I've had in my working life, which in later career have been almost completely on my own terms. As well as long career breaks totalling many years to pursue my own interests, and side projects. Again, these experiences are probably typical for a significant silent number of people on these forums.

Agreed there is a great deal of self-delusion on the associated forums, but I limit my participation.

This conversation really requires a beer to do it justice. Mine is an Augustiner. I'll bow out now.

I agree that Contracting certainly used to be a way for people who were actually very good at what they do but maybe lacked the connections to get on in permanent employment to improve themselves financially. Problem is successive governments - of both colour - have looked from on high and decided we are all do the same job as the permit sitting next to us and decided we need to pay the same tax without having the same benefits.

To be fair I have known contractors in multi year engagements who more or less fit that bill and haven't really helped the cause.

[lecyclist]

This sounds like what a patronising Bezos might say to his employees while at the same time him not following none of the rules of the construct.

Although this is a professional forum where I imagine most of the readers are earning at least £70K a year (200 days at £350 a day is not an unreasonable expectation), which is a different world from zero hours precariat service industry workers.

Yes, borrowing from one of my favourite authors Derrick Jensen, we are all in the business of selling our fingers and toes for money. But without disclosing personal details about my own circumstances, I feel privileged to have the opportunities I've had in my working life, which in later career have been almost completely on my own terms. As well as long career breaks totalling many years to pursue my own interests, and side projects. Again, these experiences are probably typical for a significant silent number of people on these forums.

Agreed there is a great deal of self-delusion on the associated forums, but I limit my participation.

This conversation really requires a beer to do it justice. Mine is an Augustiner. I'll bow out now.

[TheDude]

This sounds like what a patronising Bezos might say to his employees while at the same time him not following none of the rules of the construct.

I don't think that particularly talented people are usually found in contracting. Just more business savy people that understand how the world works and can sell themselves well and also deliver to expectations. To some extent.

It is a more honest way of approaching 'selling your time. The alternative is the mainstream, perm construct that is full of delusion.

I think, the best we could do is follow the truth and be honest of expressing it. Anyone that has survived through a few contracts and been through the corporate route would have at least some scepticism about how the system works.

That is the part as well that I have found to be lacking around here. A lot of people being still deluded by glittery lights and playing around to the beautiful ideas that keeps other people trapped in the wage lifestyle.

I believe, above all should be a place of honesty. Rest follows.

I agree - it's not uncommon for contractors to view the difference between perm salaries and contract day rates as evidence of their own superior ability.

As a perm I worked with many mediocre contractors who were a lot more interested in letting people know about their pilots licence or sports car than in demonstrating how technically skilled they were. These were typically the guys that fought to keep every penny they could away from HMRC as well.

[GigiBronz]

IMO contracting continues to be an aspirational lifestyle that provides talented working class people (in particular) access to mobile financially lucrative opportunities that can be transformational.

This sounds like what a patronising Bezos might say to his employees while at the same time him not following none of the rules of the construct.

I don't think that particularly talented people are usually found in contracting. Just more business savy people that understand how the world works and can sell themselves well and also deliver to expectations. To some extent.

It is a more honest way of approaching 'selling your time. The alternative is the mainstream, perm construct that is full of delusion.

I think, the best we could do is follow the truth and be honest of expressing it. Anyone that has survived through a few contracts and been through the corporate route would have at least some scepticism about how the system works.

That is the part as well that I have found to be lacking around here. A lot of people being still deluded by glittery lights and playing around to the beautiful ideas that keeps other people trapped in the wage lifestyle.

I believe, above all should be a place of honesty. Rest follows.

[lecyclist]

started even to think at some point that there are gov shills manning this forum.

GigiBronz, just takes a small number of self important content contributors to kill a forum. IMO contracting continues to be an aspirational lifestyle that provides talented working class people (in particular) access to mobile financially lucrative opportunities that can be transformational. That attitude is underrepresented and under-promoted on these boards, largely because happy busy people have no inclination to post.