Reply to: Advice on move from permie to contracting?

[jamesbrown]

Oh, and there are transfer of debt provisions too.

[jamesbrown]

But exactly who will HMRC go after first, i.e. who gets the underpaid tax demand first?

The client or the agency?

It depends where the fault lies, i.e., the rules envisage obligation-based liability. If the client fails to provide a timely SDS or take reasonable care, the client (they are now the Fee Payer). If the Fee Payer (who isn’t the end client) fails to transmit the SDS or make correct deductions, then they are liable. The last intermediary above the PSC is the Fee Payer by default, but transmission of the SDS is like pass the parcel. If you get stuck with it, you are the Fee Payer. If the worker engages in fraud, then the worker’s intermediary and potentially the worker becomes liable. If the supply chain is fully overseas or the client is a small business, then the worker’s intermediary is liable and potentially the worker if fraud is involved (as now). The entire supply chain is at risk, but the Fee Payer, in particular (bearing in mind this role can be transferred upwards from the default position).

[Fraidycat]

From April 2021 the agency / end client - it won't be the contractor unless the agency can demonstrate deliberate lies by the worker...

But exactly who will HMRC go after first, i.e. who gets the tax demand/fine first?

The client or the agency?

For the case when any outside determination was proved to be incorrect.

[eek]

I never said who is responsible for deducting tax and NICs.

I said who is liable if any outside IR35 determination is successfully challenged by HMRC?

From April 2021 the agency / end client - it won't be the contractor unless the agency can demonstrate deliberate lies by the worker...

[Fraidycat]

The fee payer is responsible for deducting tax and NI, that is not always the client. In most cases it'll be the agency. Ultimately the client is liable but only if entities further down the chain don't do their jobs properly.

I never said who is responsible for deducting tax and NICs.

I said who is liable if any outside IR35 determination is successfully challenged by HMRC?

[eek]

The fee payer is responsible for deducting tax and NI, that is not always the client. In most cases it'll be the agency. Ultimately the client is liable but only if entities further down the chain don't do their jobs properly.

Yes tax on an inside £800 p/day gig will be high but what's bad about that if you've never had a contract job before? Outside roles are going to be hard to find until the market corrects itself so your advice is pretty rubbish guidance for a first time contractor.

Responsibility will always be with the agency unless they delegate it to the umbrella company (except in some weird circumstances there is zero need to cover here).

And a new contractor isn't going to need £100,000 + to live on as they won't got used to years of high living so will probably just massively increase their pension contributions while still enjoying a better lifestyle.

[ladymuck]

Except the clients are now liable for the tax not the contractor.
Do you really want work a £800 a day inside contract? Knowing you will pay around £90K a year to the tax man.
Find a £600 outside contract instead, even £550, there will probably be more of them and you are more likely to get renewed as you don't cost the client that much more than a high end permie.

The fee payer is responsible for deducting tax and NI, that is not always the client. In most cases it'll be the agency. Ultimately the client is liable but only if entities further down the chain don't do their jobs properly.

Yes tax on an inside £800 p/day gig will be high but what's bad about that if you've never had a contract job before? Outside roles are going to be hard to find until the market corrects itself so your advice is pretty rubbish guidance for a first time contractor.

[Fraidycat]

I think the opposite of trying to get an outside IR35 contract. If you've never contracted before and can get good inside rates, you'll never be looking back on the "good old outside days" and you'll never fear an investigation.

Except the clients are now liable for the tax not the contractor.
Do you really want work a £800 a day inside contract? Knowing you will pay around £90K a year to the tax man.
Find a £600 outside contract instead, even £550, there will probably be more of them and you are more likely to get renewed as you don't cost the client that much more than a high end permie.

[skyhawk172]

Sounds like a good plan. As for technologies, take a look at the jobs boards, but I'd say it's as much about disciplines as technologies - for example, there's good demand for data science/statistics/analytics/AI/machine learning/deep learning, but technology stacks are secondary to the mathematical foundations. Everyone will have an opinion on in-demand skills though. Finding a niche is a good idea if you want a long career in contracting - contracting for generalists has been on the decline for some time and I don't see that ending, only accelerating.

Thanks - makes 100% sense!

[LondonManc]

I think the opposite of trying to get an outside IR35 contract. If you've never contracted before and can get good inside rates, you'll never be looking back on the "good old outside days" and you'll never fear an investigation.

[jamesbrown]

Appreciate the honest response! Good to know. I think I'll probably stay where I am till the summer at least, keep an eye on the market, skill up in some in-demand technologies (at my current employer's expense), take a career break (when/if the virus ever settles down) then after that have another look at contracting.

Any idea of what technologies have a (more) favourable supply/demand for contracting right now?

Sounds like a good plan. As for technologies, take a look at the jobs boards, but I'd say it's as much about disciplines as technologies - for example, there's good demand for data science/statistics/analytics/AI/machine learning/deep learning, but technology stacks are secondary to the mathematical foundations. Everyone will have an opinion on in-demand skills though. Finding a niche is a good idea if you want a long career in contracting - contracting for generalists has been on the decline for some time and I don't see that ending, only accelerating.

[skyhawk172]

All of it, specifically. I know that sounds a bit harsh, but your specific technical skills are pretty common (there will be many benched right now with those exact skills and many years of contracting experience) and those soft skills don't really count for much when landing a contract. They might help in retaining a contract. OTOH, there's a good chance your lack of contracting experience will mean your CV doesn't even get past the agent. You might get lucky, but everything is working against you.

Appreciate the honest response! Good to know. I think I'll probably stay where I am till the summer at least, keep an eye on the market, skill up in some in-demand technologies (at my current employer's expense), take a career break (when/if the virus ever settles down) then after that have another look at contracting.

Any idea of what technologies have a (more) favourable supply/demand for contracting right now?

Yes it will. That's why I wrote it. It makes you (quite rightly) look like a risk. It looks like you do 6 months get the boot and can't find work for 6 months. They won't fall for the travelling excuse.

If they do then it's still a risk as they want someone to go in and finish the gig. If its 6 months+ then it looks like you are going to bail so they will pass you over..

So yes. It will put them off.

I can see this thread turning in to one of those where we sya yeah yeah you are right just go for it. OP doesn't like the answers so will keep pushing till they get the one the want.

Definitely not a case of pushing cos I don't like the answers! I like to question/test everything to make sure I understand it right - so ask on here to question/test my plan (not viable). Asked you to elaborate to make sure I got that point right too - thanks for elaborating, good to understand the reality of it! If/when I eventually get to contracting it's probably be a case of taking smaller chunks of time off during natural breaks between the contracts I guess?

But as I said above, it's looking like it wouldn't be a good move right now.

[northernladuk]

Also, curious about this - is it as bad as this? Will that put off agencies/clients?

Yes it will. That's why I wrote it. It makes you (quite rightly) look like a risk. It looks like you do 6 months get the boot and can't find work for 6 months. They won't fall for the travelling excuse.

If they do then it's still a risk as they want someone to go in and finish the gig. If its 6 months+ then it looks like you are going to bail so they will pass you over..

So yes. It will put them off.

I can see this thread turning in to one of those where we sya yeah yeah you are right just go for it. OP doesn't like the answers so will keep pushing till they get the one the want.

[jamesbrown]

What are you referring to specifically here? Are there more contractors with those tech skills than there are contracts? Or are you referring to the soft skills bit of what I said?

All of it, specifically. I know that sounds a bit harsh, but your specific technical skills are pretty common (there will be many benched right now with those exact skills and many years of contracting experience) and those soft skills don't really count for much when landing a contract. They might help in retaining a contract. OTOH, there's a good chance your lack of contracting experience will mean your CV doesn't even get past the agent. You might get lucky, but everything is working against you.

[skyhawk172]

Thanks for all the replies - some good interesting info on this thread

Technology area at the moment is JavaScript/TypeScript/Node.js/AWS/CDK, AWS Certified, but I also have a lot of Java experience. As well as development/design/banging out code, I'd say I also have a lot to bring to the table in terms of leadership, mentoring, communication, helping product people define/split/sequence work to maximise business value.

You and pretty much every other jobless IT contractor out there. Stick with what you have a count yourself lucky, imho.

What are you referring to specifically here? Are there more contractors with those tech skills than there are contracts? Or are you referring to the soft skills bit of what I said?

What's the best way to keep your ear to the ground in terms of opportunities generally? ie. you can see contracts being advertised and get an idea of what's going on in the demand side, but it's hard to see what the supply of skills is like. For example, you could see 20 Java contracts and 5 C# contracts advertised but if there are 50 unemployed Java contractors out there and only 3 C# then that paints a very different picture

The chances of you getting gauranteed 6 months on 6 months off outside IR35 gigs? None whatsoever. Even if you do the first on and off will destroy your CV. No one is going to want a contractor with one 6 monther and a long break. Looks more like you can't cut it and your will be a risk to the agency so they won't touch you.

Also, curious about this - is it as bad as this? Will that put off agencies/clients?