Reply to: Project manager - RE-TRAINING but in what?

[BigDataPro]

That's a tad unfair. The stand-up can typically be 15 minutes. Then go home.

[Paralytic]

Also, do you have to do anything after the ten minute stand-up meeting, or do you just take the rest of the day off?

That's a tad unfair. The stand-up can typically be 15 minutes. Then go home.

[eek]

Has anyone here saying PMs are useless dealt with the security, compliance or data governance teams?????

Yes - it's part of the job of a decent Solution Architect.

[hugebrain]

From experience, those that have moved over to being scrum masters are those who really couldn't cut it as developers, architects and engineers in general.

OK, I’m almost sold. What are the rates like for a scrum master compared to say, a microservices architect?

Also, do you have to do anything after the ten minute stand-up meeting, or do you just take the rest of the day off?

[Drei]

Telling the project board why the project is late, over budget, and that it’s not the engineers fault..... and then getting sacked. They’re good for that.

Seriously though... good PMs are useful. A PM with no experience in a subject (the OP) are simply a waste of skin and organs.

Man I know exactly what you mean. I am a PM but come from a technical background, I actually studied technology at college and university, coded and was a database whizz. I have a lot of technical knowledge that I use when working with the technical teams or suppliers, I can even check the technical documentation and flag stuff up, can have inputs on solutions. Did it all, telecoms, software development, bespoke stuff, infrastructure, big data etc. Kep my knowledge very broad.
The problem with this is that you are either too technical or people don't really give a tulip about your opinion, you accept it knowing that the solution is wrong and you try to deliver a failing project, when something goes wrong that you flagged up, it is always your fault. I picked up a project once where there have been about 5 other PMs on it, they kept throwing them out not realising that the fault was with the management.


Because there are so many tulip PMs out there, they give everyone a bad name... I love it when the technical engineer says, I can PM, there is nothing to it. Then you get called to make magic happen once the tulip hits the fan.

This is the other major issue with good PMs, you get called ONLY after the client has ****ed up and they need someone to get them out, at which point you may be able to do so, either way... the board WILL know that you are the one that ****ed up the project and delivery timelines, not the idiots that started the project. If by chance you manage to get the project back on track, work your way through all the tulip but things are still not quite as the board wants it, you might get fired, then someone internal will pick it up and push the ******* pile of tulip over the finish line, and be hailed a hero)... whilst you ****ed up...


I really wished for once I could go in a board room and say... NO you ****ed up, because you put your technical team to work on a project with tight timelines whilst also doing their BAU jobs... and I been telling you this politely for the past months. Don't tell me this is not the case on pretty much every technical project. Having the technical guys do BAU and Project work until they are burned out. I am the rare one that shields them as much as I can, because I understand their jobs, and nothing is a ******* "5 minutes" job. So yeah, I take the hit and move on.

Project Management is pretty much having good common sense, which many many people lack. A good PM is actually great because they get the blame so you don't have to because you can't do your job properly.

Projects and Programmes have overarching deliverables and different delivery objectives, so yeah, why doesn't the technical resource that is stretched out doing the work also do all that chasing up, manage all the risks and issues, create documentation, manage the documentation, making sure everything falls into place, deal with the end users and 3rd parties, keeping all the sharks at bay so techies can do their jobs, keeping track of all them tasks you have on your plate that you have no idea when they must be done by, you know the who what when?, making sure your infrastructure and environments are ready for you to do your little job so that 10 other people can go in and do their bits, all them checks, dealing with the compliance team, security team and governance teams, having 10 different people reach out to you instead of going through the PM which should be the main point of contact and everything flowing through them... **** yeah, nothing to it.

Has anyone here saying PMs are useless dealt with the security, compliance or data governance teams?????

The techies on here that see no value from PMs must have worked in little silos, doing their own little piece not going out of their little bubble. Or I guess it's the ones that work in companies (mainly small companies) that have no governance, no checks, nothing, where they go in and develop or implement the whole solution however they see fit, and then a year or two in the future when they need to do upgrades, migrations or anything that changes the solution, the PM gets called in because there is ABSOLUTELY NO documentation or anything to understand what the hands-on "Tech PM", sorry I meant developer/engineer did 2 years ago, so yeah the techies that create the tulip jobs for the PMs to solve, well done you!!!.


I have been thinking into going the Enterprise Architect route or other more consulting roles with hands on. Even BAs get similar daily rates and have a lot less tulip to deal with.

[Paralytic]

And if they are brazen enough to ignore the daily prompt or too busy doing busy work to deal with it?

Then the issue is not the framework, but the person (the issue would exist with other methodologies), which naturally leads onto:

The entire point is that a PM is probably the least suitable person you could imagine to be a Scrum Master.

I'd turn that around and say you should not assume that a PM is the automatically the most suitable person to become a Scrum Master, because there are some skills that transfer over, but its far from a 1:1 mapping.

[eek]

I did not mean to give this impression. Apologies. It's clear that some others on this thread do not know, however. I suspect they were abused by a rugby player as a child or something



I've encountered this issue too, and my solution has always been to include the impediment as an item on Scrum/Kanban Board, and it is thereafter discussed at the daily Scrum. The Scrum Master can have "what I did yesterday, what I'll do today" items too, and this is the opportunity for that person to update the team on progress (or otherwise) of the impediment

And if they are brazen enough to ignore the daily prompt or too busy doing busy work to deal with it? The entire point is that a PM is probably the least suitable person you could imagine to be a Scrum Master.

[Paralytic]

You seem to have this idea that I don't know how scrum works - I do.

I did not mean to give this impression. Apologies. It's clear that some others on this thread do not know, however. I suspect they were abused by a rugby player as a child or something

The issue is related to reporting issues to the Scrum Master (who was best placed to fix the issue, internal staff member - internal interdepartment issue but her actual department) and you eventually end up getting it back x days later because the Scrum Master hasn't done the task.

I've encountered this issue too, and my solution has always been to include the impediment as an item on Scrum/Kanban Board, and it is thereafter discussed at the daily Scrum. The Scrum Master can have "what I did yesterday, what I'll do today" items too, and this is the opportunity for that person to update the team on progress (or otherwise) of the impediment

[Paralytic]

[QUOTE=eek;2829414]You seem to have this idea that I don't know how scrum works - I do./QUOTE]

I did not mean to give this impression. Apologies. Its clear that others on this thread do not know, however

The issue is related to reporting issues to the Scrum Master (who was best placed to fix the issue, internal staff member - internal interdepartment issue but her actual department) and you eventually end up getting it back x days later because the Scrum Master hasn't done the task.

I've encountered this issue too, and my solution has always been to include the impediment as an item on Scrum/Kanban Board, and it is thereafter discussed at the daily Scrum. The Scrum Master can have "what I did yesterday, what I'll do today" items too, and this is the opportunity for that person to update the team on progress (or otherwise) of the impediment

[eek]

A common misconception is that it is the Scrum Masters is responsibility for removing all impediments. That is not the case; the Scrum Master HELPS removes impediments - it is perfectly common, and often required, that team members remove impediments, with support from the Scrum Master. The Scrum Master will typically have more responsibility to remove impediments that exist due to influences outside of the immediate team.

Another misconception (shown in some other posts above from some who have obviously only read about the framework) is that the Scrum Master is always a separate person within the team - this is not necessarily the case. The Scrum Master is a role. If you have a self-managing, high performing team, then that team may not need a dedicated Scrum Master, but a member of the team can perform that role, with minimal overhead to the work they are doing for the team.

You seem to have this idea that I don't know how scrum works - I do.

The issue was related to reporting issues to the Scrum Master (who as an internal staff member from the department who had the domain knowledge so was best placed to fix the issue) and you eventually end up getting it back x days later because the Scrum Master hasn't done the task.

And I've seen that exact same thing in the UK, in Austria and in Eastern Europe so it's not just 1 company and not just 1 country.

[Paralytic]

I find most PMs are incredibly good at recording issues and then eventually passing them back to me to resolve (as the competent person who can get things done).

A common misconception is that it is the Scrum Masters is responsibility for removing all impediments. That is not the case; the Scrum Master HELPS removes impediments - it is perfectly common, and often required, that team members remove impediments, with support from the Scrum Master. The Scrum Master will typically have more responsibility to remove impediments that exist due to influences outside of the immediate team.

Another misconception (shown in some other posts above from some who have obviously only read about the framework) is that the Scrum Master is always a separate person within the team - this is not necessarily the case. The Scrum Master is a role. If you have a self-managing, high performing team, then that team may not need a dedicated Scrum Master, but a member of the team can perform that role, with minimal overhead to the work they are doing for the team.

[eek]

Well, yeah. That’s what the PM should have done. Mitigate risks and remove issues. We’re you abused by a project manager as a child or something?

I find most PMs are incredibly good at recording issues and then eventually passing them back to me to resolve (as the competent person who can get things done).

[LondonManc]

It's one thing to keep a track of issues in a log - it's another thing to actual resolve them so development can proceed.

Well, yeah. That’s what the PM should have done. Mitigate risks and remove issues. We’re you abused by a project manager as a child or something?

[eek]

That’s the job of the issue log and risk register which the PM manages in Waterfall. Horses for courses and all that.

It's one thing to keep a track of issues in a log - it's another thing to actual resolve them so development can proceed.

[LondonManc]

Yes as you pointed out here



Scrum requires knowledge to remove impediments - those impediments are going to be either technical, business or subject matter related.

Chances are if you come from a technical background you will have suitable subject matter knowledge. Likewise if you come from within the business.

I think the idea that an external PM is a good resource for a scrum project is one for the birds.

That’s the job of the issue log and risk register which the PM manages in Waterfall. Horses for courses and all that.