Reply to: Outside IR35 rates coming down

[PerfectStorm]

Any why a week's notice? its irrelevant to income - your end client can turn the tap off at 1730 (just like you can) and you get nothing, irrelevant of 1 day, 1 week or 1 month's notice! (Or are you a permi-tractor?)

M

Most notices, when utilised, get served in full

[mjcp]

Yes. And you missed out compliance hell, even after you get awarded the gig, because you can't satisfy the extreme and obscure paperwork demands the agency has agreed to on your behalf.

Eh? The paperwork isn't going to be any different to what you'd need to supply as a permie for a given business / role (i.e. finance might need more info/detail than a dull manufacturer of commodity widgets), with the exception that as a contractor, you also supply your business details / insurance / VAT etc.

In fact, I've never been asked for my degree certificate as a contractor, yet 2 years ago, my wife took a new perm role and was, 30 years after she graduated! so, anecdotally, permie is more tedious for compliance!

Make it in London or remote, add another hundred a day, with a week's notice period, and I'll take it.

Wouldn't the London vs remote impact the rate you'd take? but then you say £100 a day more...

Any why a week's notice? its irrelevant to income - your end client can turn the tap off at 1730 (just like you can) and you get nothing, irrelevant of 1 day, 1 week or 1 month's notice! (Or are you a permi-tractor?)

M

[BR14]

he Must have a bigger line count than JohntheBore by now.

[northernladuk]

I don't want to turn this into another long post,

But you will won't you...

[Disguised Contractor]

I don't want to turn this into another long post, since some people seemed to react adversely to that last time, so I'll try to keep this brief...

The fact all this is new news suggests to me you might not have taken notice or understood if there was a downturn or not.

In truth, no, not a lot of notice. I was busy working. What would have been the point in monitoring it, anyway, really? I can't change the fact that there's a downturn or not. I just work as much as I can, build the warchest, and go looking for work when one opportunity ends. If it's during a traditionally quiet time of year, as Jan-Feb tends to be, one expects to be out longer than other times of the year. Kipper Season, the cabbies call it.

I've been in downturns before, but I've always found work, and if I can find it, then other people must be finding work too. That's not arrogance, just positive thinking.

Not a clue. I was looking for a gig, not analysing the whole market. Look at the state of the market thread. More people on there with 4 to 5 months plus out than ever. And they are the few people that bothered to post about it.

Are they really the few that bothered to post about it? OR are they really the few that couldn't find work? What's the sample size?

The plural of anecdote is not data.

All that has happened in previous years is that clients have used contracting as the standard way to recruit so watering the whole market down to the point there are more mid level permatractors than IT specialists.

The line between permatractor and IT specialist is very grey and open to interpretation from all sides, and the lack of an agreed definition is why IR35 has managed to do so much damage now. What definitions we do have are routinely ignored both by HMRC and by clients evaluating contracts, because it serves their purpose to. Even in what I would describe as extreme cases, such as our friend on the thread with a five-year contract history seeking a way out of his new status, there is no agreement among even ourselves.

Not lack of money. Budgets have to be agreed and ring fenced before they engage the recruiter who advertises. You name it I was told it. Requirement gone, found contractor that had been there, still on hold (up to 3 months for some public sector ones), picked someone local and some other very random ones. Not one of them where i could just do a straight interview and end in a race to the gig against other contractors. Very frustrating.

Yes. And you missed out compliance hell, even after you get awarded the gig, because you can't satisfy the extreme and obscure paperwork demands the agency has agreed to on your behalf.

There will be a ton of people leaving and a ton of roles opening to fill them. I'd say less roles to fill than are vacated as permies come in but still should be crazy. Question is are you good enough to beat the 100's of others to do it, are there roles in your location, will you work inside. They should be there in the short term and then back to a drought.

That's why I moved to London from the other end of the country, because I knew jobs at the level I wanted weren't available in sufficient quantity to support a career locally. The chances of beating all those odds increase with the number of jobs available. Again, not arrogance, and I wish I could move back home and still have a career, but I can't. I had to choose one. And long-distance commuting wasn't for me.

I have to say looking at this question and many others around the same topic you've a certain level of naivety or willingness to understand/accept the situation. Particularly with so many posts about people being on the bench for long periods and contracting imploding. Anyone with a hole in their bum could put two and two together and be very worried.. You just seem to ask more naive questions.

In honesty, I've been shocked over the last few days by all this talk of five month benching, which disconcerts me strongly, but I don't share the experiences of historic long-term benching that you and others describe. I am sharing my honest opinion (since, aren't we here to share opinions? And wouldn't it be boring if we all agreed with each other?), not trolling, not being arrogant - but I am prepared to apply critical thinking, and maybe come to a different conclusion to the one you have reached. If I seem to ask naive questions, it's because I don't understand how you interpret the source data to justify what you're saying, and I'm prepared to go back to basics to understand them. Sometimes I agree, sometimes I don't.

[northernladuk]

I think you misunderstand; I CHOSE to have these breaks (healthy warchest you see), and when I started looking properly would land a role within 2-4 weeks.

Doh!!! My bad.

[hairymouse]

Not sure if that is tongue in cheek but it can't not affect us the way it's going so quite possibly.

Not tongue in cheek.

[gables]

Not met many people with that length of time but this time last year if someone said they'd be out of work 5 months+ I would have assumed they were crap or constrained in some way i.e. location and enjoying the time off. I couldn't have been more wrong.

After my 5 months, which I absolutely detested and got in to a bit of a mess, when I see you say 8 months it makes my bum clench so hard my piles rub together rather painfully. I don't handle being out of work very well at all, never have, so many people may be much better at it but still. You got all my sympathy with a history like that...


And that! Ouch.

I think you misunderstand; I CHOSE to have these breaks (healthy warchest you see), and when I started looking properly would land a role within 2-4 weeks.

[northernladuk]

Cornonavirus! Strong possibility that everything will shut down like Christmas for a few months.

Not sure if that is tongue in cheek but it can't not affect us the way it's going so quite possibly.

[northernladuk]

You're just a beginner at this I took 8 months off before starting this new permie role, and this was an accident

Not met many people with that length of time but this time last year if someone said they'd be out of work 5 months+ I would have assumed they were crap or constrained in some way i.e. location and enjoying the time off. I couldn't have been more wrong.

After my 5 months, which I absolutely detested and got in to a bit of a mess, when I see you say 8 months it makes my bum clench so hard my piles rub together rather painfully. I don't handle being out of work very well at all, never have, so many people may be much better at it but still. You got all my sympathy with a history like that...

And since July 2014 I've taken two stints of 6 months between contracts

And that! Ouch.

[northernladuk]

That's over twice longer than I've ever been on the bench - I would have given up well before then.

I've only been out 3 weeks once in 10 years. Given up and done what exactly? I was also looking for permie roles in case a tasty one turned up but nothing but market rate which was well over 50% loss income. Maybe that's the northwest for you. Dunno about Lahndan.

May I ask you, in what IT areas do you work?

Service Management

Now, the end of year part is typical, of course - I wasn't looking Q3-4 last year, so can't say much about that, either. But I didn't notice a huge downturn in the first six months of last year myself.

The fact all this is new news suggests to me you might not have taken notice or understood if there was a downturn or not.

I miss the old Jobstats website!

Miss it? It's still around. ITjobswatch... but I wouldn't trust it as far as I can throw it. It's scraped information so in downturns agents have more time to post ads so will be very finger in the air at the very best.

No roles - for you, or the market generally? I would not think the sector would support a market in which only a few roles a week are advertised.

Not a clue. I was looking for a gig, not analysing the whole market. Look at the state of the market thread. More people on there with 4 to 5 months plus out than ever. And they are the few people that bothered to post about it.

I've found that at the moment, specialisation is absolute king - every single skill or piece of experience on your CV that isn't specifically demanded, counts very harshly against you. Heavily customised CV's heavily plagiarised from the job description are the order of the day, more so than ever before.

And in other news the sun will come up. It has always been king. All that has happened in previous years is that clients have used contracting as the standard way to recruit so watering the whole market down to the point there are more mid level permatractors than IT specialists.

Yes, I've noticed this, this time around, and it's not the first time. It's typical when there's not a lot of energy in the market, at quiet times, when clients are not as motivated in the process as they would be if a role was urgent. Usually synonymous with a lack of money. This next month, that should change, I would think - and hope!

Not lack of money. Budgets have to be agreed and ring fenced before they engage the recruiter who advertises. You name it I was told it. Requirement gone, found contractor that had been there, still on hold (up to 3 months for some public sector ones), picked someone local and some other very random ones. Not one of them where i could just do a straight interview and end in a race to the gig against other contractors. Very frustrating.

Now this really concerns me - I'm unsure many of us really want to be working, or attempting to work, in an ecosystem where we're out of work more than 50% of the time. That's the sign the universe is giving me, that I need to change my career model.

It shouldn't be the case. There will be a ton of people leaving and a ton of roles opening to fill them. I'd say less roles to fill than are vacated as permies come in but still should be crazy. Question is are you good enough to beat the 100's of others to do it, are there roles in your location, will you work inside. They should be there in the short term and then back to a drought.

I have to say looking at this question and many others around the same topic you've a certain level of naivety or willingness to understand/accept the situation. Particularly with so many posts about people being on the bench for long periods and contracting imploding. Anyone with a hole in their bum could put two and two together and be very worried.. You just seem to ask more naive questions.

And I've mentioned it before but just to add, I had a warchest of over a year so the stress of income was not a factor for me to consider and it was still rubbish.

[gables]

I've just ended 5 months on the bench as well.

You're just a beginner at this I took 8 months off before starting this new permie role, and this was an accident

That's over twice longer than I've ever been on the bench - I would have given up well before then.

May I ask you, in what IT areas do you work?

And since July 2014 I've taken two stints of 6 months between contracts

[Disguised Contractor]

I've just ended 5 months on the bench as well.

That's over twice longer than I've ever been on the bench - I would have given up well before then.

May I ask you, in what IT areas do you work?

Issues contributing to it in no particular order:-

End of year/xmas
IR35 issues while they sort out what they are going to do
General market down turn that's been going on most of the year if not before
Brexit (although not sure about this one)
Every contractor in the country going for the outside ones if they are in gig or not (major one this)

Now, the end of year part is typical, of course - I wasn't looking Q3-4 last year, so can't say much about that, either. But I didn't notice a huge downturn in the first six months of last year myself.

I miss the old Jobstats website!

There were just no roles coming up. A few a week tops to which 100's of people applied in the first few hours. People facing inside or PSC bans all applying for them, not just people on the bench.

No roles - for you, or the market generally? I would not think the sector would support a market in which only a few roles a week are advertised.

Also some weirdness in the process.

I've found that at the moment, specialisation is absolute king - every single skill or piece of experience on your CV that isn't specifically demanded, counts very harshly against you. Heavily customised CV's heavily plagiarised from the job description are the order of the day, more so than ever before.

Every gig I applied for took weeks to get feedback/interview. No apply Mon, interview Weds on site Monday.

Yes, I've noticed this, this time around, and it's not the first time. It's typical when there's not a lot of energy in the market, at quiet times, when clients are not as motivated in the process as they would be if a role was urgent. Usually synonymous with a lack of money. This next month, that should change, I would think - and hope!

And a large percentage of roles evaporating for every reason under the sun. Very weird time.

Ditto - I've observed this, too.

Obviously some of the reasons will go but new reasons will appear in the next 6 weeks. If you aren't expecting or preparing for 6 months+ on the bench after April you need your head examining.

Now this really concerns me - I'm unsure many of us really want to be working, or attempting to work, in an ecosystem where we're out of work more than 50% of the time. That's the sign the universe is giving me, that I need to change my career model.

[hairymouse]

new reasons will appear in the next 6 weeks.

Cornonavirus! Strong possibility that everything will shut down like Christmas for a few months.

[hairymouse]

Which you missed out on. Expensive point of principle no?

In hindsight, maybe. It was still only month one at that point. And the whole vibe was really not very nice.

Whatever, no crying over spilt milk.