Reply to: Financial Services London - Are all us BA_PMs obsolete? What next?

[eek]

If your scrum team has a dedicated BA, then you're not doing scrum. A scrum team has a Scrum Master, PO and team members.

That BA role sounds like a proxy Product Owner - I've seen that often as companies transaction to agile: The PO is a business stakeholder who has the PO role added to their bucket of things to do, but does not have time to do it. Company has moved from waterfall, so assigns the BA to work with the PO to define the user stories.

It can work, but unless there are tight controls in place, with the PO fully embedded within the team, then in can result in the PO saying "that's not what I wanted" down the line. I've seen it done where the PO wants to sign off the user stories before they are allowed into sprint planning. Its a half-way house between waterfall and agile.

If the PO isn't paying daily attention to the deliverables that's their fault.

[eek]

I agree with this. The BA at ClientCo for the project I am on was excellent and my role as PO was made a lot easier through her work.

Sadly internal politics put the project on hold after Christmas and the consultancy she's with redeployed her elsewhere. I actually worry about the success of the project without her, or someone of her calibre, on it.

Yep - product owners rarely dive into the detail to find out exactly how the current process works and all the if buts and maybes that occur within it.

In the ideal world you want Functional Consultants on the team (i.e. knows the configuration side of the product and knows how that business sector works) without that you need BAs with sector knowledge.

Although it might be that I'm used to multiple team projects where I would expect the Product Owner and Solution architect to be part time across multiple teams to ensure the final delivered project is complete. But that's because I like small teams of 4-6 people rather than large teams performing multiple tasks at the same time.

But hey I only used to delivery multi-million pound projects across europe so what do I know.

[BritishLad88]

In an agile world - the BA isn't important ??????

I'm sorry but on any project I'm working on all members in a scrum team are equally important and the BA is at least as important as the Product owner. The product owner wants the product to be as good as possible, the BA needs to ensure it actually meets the business's requirements.

exactly, try telling my old company that.

[BritishLad88]

If your scrum team has a dedicated BA, then you're not doing scrum. A scrum team has a Scrum Master, PO and team members.

completely concur!

however, scrum is only one of many methodologies within agile. don't forget kanban, lean, scrumfall, kanfall, scrumban, ......

[ladymuck]

In an agile world - the BA isn't important ??????

I'm sorry but on any project I'm working on all members in a scrum team are equally important and the BA is at least as important as the Product owner. The product owner wants the product to be as good as possible, the BA needs to ensure it actually meets the business's requirements.

I agree with this. The BA at ClientCo for the project I am on was excellent and my role as PO was made a lot easier through her work.

Sadly internal politics put the project on hold after Christmas and the consultancy she's with redeployed her elsewhere. I actually worry about the success of the project without her, or someone of her calibre, on it.

[Paralytic]

In an agile world - the BA isn't important ??????

I'm sorry but on any project I'm working on all members in a scrum team are equally important and the BA is at least as important as the Product owner. The product owner wants the product to be as good as possible, the BA needs to ensure it actually meets the business's requirements.

If your scrum team has a dedicated BA, then you're not doing scrum. A scrum team has a Scrum Master, PO and team members.

That BA role sounds like a proxy Product Owner - I've seen that often as companies transaction to agile: The PO is a business stakeholder who has the PO role added to their bucket of things to do, but does not have time to do it. Company has moved from waterfall, so assigns the BA to work with the PO to define the user stories.

It can work, but unless there are tight controls in place, with the PO fully embedded within the team, then in can result in the PO saying "that's not what I wanted" down the line. I've seen it done where the PO wants to sign off the user stories before they are allowed into sprint planning. Its a half-way house between waterfall and agile.

[eek]

A company i used to work for exactly had this kind of stuff. They viewed the BAs role as junior/bottom of the ladder and PM (Product Managers)/PO (Product Owners) are at the top. They see a BA natural progression is to get promoted to a PM/PO.

Indeed, the market has shifted a bit. in an agile world, BA role still exist but merely just an entry position. However, for a non-agile world (in particular in FS) BAs are still regarded as the top of the class.

That's because in a non-agile world there's no concept of 'Products' hence no requirement for PM (Product Manager)/PO - but rather they focus on 'Projects' instead, therefore in those environments they have BAs/PM < Project Managers

In an agile world - the BA isn't important ??????

I'm sorry but on any project I'm working on all members in a scrum team are equally important and the BA is at least as important as the Product owner. The product owner wants the product to be as good as possible, the BA needs to ensure it actually meets the business's requirements.

[northernladuk]

They viewed the BAs role as junior/bottom of the ladder

Yep. Seems fair enough to me.

[BritishLad88]

Just over four years later and two of them are already Product Managers in fast growth companies, before they hit 26. I also worked at a FTSE100 company (my last perm role about seven years ago) and again saw a few of the bright young things go down a similar path.

A company i used to work for exactly had this kind of stuff. They viewed the BAs role as junior/bottom of the ladder and PM (Product Managers)/PO (Product Owners) are at the top. They see a BA natural progression is to get promoted to a PM/PO.

Indeed, the market has shifted a bit. in an agile world, BA role still exist but merely just an entry position. However, for a non-agile world (in particular in FS) BAs are still regarded as the top of the class.

That's because in a non-agile world there's no concept of 'Products' hence no requirement for PM (Product Manager)/PO - but rather they focus on 'Projects' instead, therefore in those environments they have BAs/PM < Project Managers

[edison]

I had a new team of young BAs working for me a few years ago. All relatively new graduates with less than a year's work experience. They were on a two year scheme with a big IT Services supplier to train them them up to become fully fledged BAs whilst working for my end client at the time. They also did some BA certifications plus ones in Agile etc in that time.

Just over four years later and two of them are already Product Managers in fast growth companies, before they hit 26. I also worked at a FTSE100 company (my last perm role about seven years ago) and again saw a few of the bright young things go down a similar path.

I don't think BAs and PMs are going to be 'obsolete' any time soon, even in FS, but I think these examples are an illustration that the market is shifting (contract or perm.) If you combine personal and professional development, it can open new doors for you, especially those who are already more experienced than the types of people above.

[perplexed]

probably because DevOps is a new concept hasn't gone that mainstream yet. there is ever higher demand for DevOps skills but yet don't have enough people out there who are skilled in this field to meet the demand.

Also that management in companies don't know a great deal about it so there's less scope for SDC.

[BritishLad88]

DevOps roles seems to be one of the few that seems to be weathering the IR35 storm currently based on what I'm seeing out in the market.

probably because DevOps is a new concept hasn't gone that mainstream yet. there is ever higher demand for DevOps skills but yet don't have enough people out there who are skilled in this field to meet the demand.

[LordAsriel]

DevOps roles seems to be one of the few that seems to be weathering the IR35 storm currently based on what I'm seeing out in the market.

[eek]

Sure thing!

I guess your industry must be finance

It isn't - you would be surprised how slow the rest of the world moves with the times..

[BritishLad88]

It may be in your industry, in my pond I’m making good money out of the general bafflement of applying agile and DevOps to the BAU world...

Sure thing!

I guess your industry must be finance