Reply to: SDC - expected use of in-house libraries/technology to complete technical tasks

[NotAllThere]

Let's try that again.

Thread closed.

[Lance]

and the first line of the first reply was was saying that you are..........

[MonkeysUncle]

As a PM there have been gigs where I have to do all my reporting on a specific clients PM application.
Even if I found it clunky and frankly crap I still had to use it for all my reports. Its nothing to do with SDC but simply the process in use at that client.

As others have said, suck it up or leave

[7specialgems]

Reading your post, it sounds like you just don't like what they're doing and want to change it. Nothing to do with SDC.

Fair comment but not neccessarily no, I was more concerned that it was too controlling for me and inefficient a solution for them.

In any case I have continued to read around and it looks like I've gone down the rabbit hole HMRC would want us to fall down with their intepretation of SDC.

There's some good stuff from Andy Vessey which cites case law to give a more realistic interpretation of SDC and make provisions for "specifications and guidelines":

“Does providing a brand guide for a marketing contractor to use when working on a client’s project mean SDC applies? In practice no, because if the client wants work produced in a particular manner – such as specifying the tone of voice of marketing copy - but is not giving detailed instruction as to how the contractor goes about writing the actual copy that adopts the required tone of voice, then SDC is not present.”

Having read that I am a lot more chilled out.

I did ask in the OP if I was taking it too far!

[CheeseSlice]

It works well but the world's moved on since they built them and there is equivalent vanilla functionality in the underlying software now.

I've discussed this with the developers but it is their little feifdom and despite the above, they are insisting that it continues to be used.

Reading your post, it sounds like you just don't like what they're doing and want to change it. Nothing to do with SDC.

If this is their architecture standard, then you don't get to decide, so follow the standard unless you can prove it wont work. Or, if you feel it would be unprofessional to do it, just don't accept the job and walk away stating your reasons.

[jmo21]

Regardless of whether or not it falls under SDC, is neither here nor there as far as they are concerned.

Those are the tools they want you to use (hint: everyone has to do it), so if you don't, you will have problems with them.

Either stay and use them, or don't.

Making much more of a fuss about it may take the decision out of your hands anyway.

[NotAllThere]

Whether or not in the opinion of other dev contractors they would consider an edict to use an in-house library to do the work to be an unreasonable level of direction from the end client

Everyone has said that it is not unreasonable and almost certainly not SDC. You don't believe that, so best quit.

Your concern about peer review is also ludicrous. In some industries it is imposed by regulators.

Thread closed.

[WTFH]

Whether or not in the opinion of other dev contractors they would consider an edict to use an in-house library to do the work to be an unreasonable level of direction from the end client

If YOU consider it unreasonable, then YOU have to walk away.

Others wouldn’t use the term “unreasonable” and just consider that’s how this particular client works.

[7specialgems]

so Don't Do IT Then.
FFS.
what is it you want to hear?

Whether or not in the opinion of other dev contractors they would consider an edict to use an in-house library to do the work to be an unreasonable level of direction from the end client

[BR14]

Billed or not, it is still being told how to do it to a possibly unreasonable level hence the SDC OP.

so Don't Do IT Then.
FFS.
what is it you want to hear?

[7specialgems]

or fix it for free.

Billed or not, is it still being told how to do it to a possibly unreasonable level hence the SDC OP.

[Lance]

tell them to stuff it, and walk away then.

or fix it for free.

[BR14]

Sure. I have no issue with what a company might reasonably want, but I wouldn't be doing my due dilligence correctly if I didn't consider SDC, hence the OP.

Looking at this definition of SDC attributed to HMRC:

tell them to stuff it, and walk away then.

[7specialgems]

Of course a company is going to want a uniform tech stack that's aligned with their current engineers, support and strategy..

Sure.Obviously if you've got a C# gig and you say "no, screw you, I'm doing it in Node JS" that's ridiculous, or if there's some framework like Spring being used and you decide you fancy using a completely different one then that's unreasonable as well. There will be some high level parameters for selecting technology and in a lot of cases there will be a clear de facto library for something so there won't be any dispute about using it as that's what you would probably be recommending as a solution yourself, were you asked.

But when we get down to the level of customer IP I was just concerned that the gig might be getting unreasonably prescriptive... hence the call for views from others.

Looking at this definition of SDC attributed to HMRC:

Supervision is someone overseeing a person doing work, to ensure that person is doing the work they are required to do and it is being done correctly to the required standard. Supervision can also involve helping the person, where appropriate, in order to develop their skills and knowledge.

Direction is someone making a person do his/her work in a certain way by providing them with instructions, guidance or advice as to how the work must be done. Someone providing direction will often coordinate the how the work is done, as it is being undertaken.

Control is someone dictating what work a person does and how they go about doing that work. Control also includes someone having the power to move the person from one job to another.

and in the context of the above, I repeat:

If I don't use the client's IP, they reject the work. Their position is "don't do it like that, do it like this" hence my SDC concern.

I can't decide with conviction if the "how" question seeks to address a prescribed method despite unenumerated alternatives (skin the cat exactly like this), and/or if it should also be taken (contextually) to consider materials as well (skin the cat using only these things).

[TheGreenBastard]

Is specifying a whitelist of allowable libraries not a factor in telling you how to code?

Is a peer-code review which rejects or queries your code not a factor in telling you how to code?

If I don't use the client's IP, they reject the work. Their position is "don't do it like that, do it like this" hence my SDC concern.

You sound like a bit of liability if I'm understanding you correctly regarding PRs. Should the client just assume your coding infallibility as to not tread on issues you have with "control"? How is your work verified? Sounds very inefficient waiting until it's reached the testers, and what if they send your bug riddled crap back with change requests?

Of course a company is going to want a uniform tech stack that's aligned with their current engineers, support and strategy.

This place boggles the mind sometimes.