Reply to: Introduction-only agency

[Cirrus]

A very Remainer-like mentality indeed.

You came on here with some vague ideas and a rant about how an evil empire is holding us all to ransom. Myopic remainer-me winkles out that your real grouse is a difference of opinion on IR35 wording (which curiously enough you seem to have a successful strategy for).


I'd long wondered how some people, but not others, grow up believing in God, despite the total lack of any evidence and the shear weirdness of the whole proposition. Then came Brexit (and Trump) and I realised it could be a bigger syndrome than I thought. Now we see the same sort of pattern here: (i) a group of people with a degree of control becoming the subject of hatred, (ii) promises of a wonderful new world (not specified in any way), (iii) vicious condemnation of anyone who probes for detail or calls out the kings new clothes.

I was cynical enough before; I'm now getting more depressed by the day...

[tomtomagain]

A large part of an agencies job today is pretty much swipe left or swipe right, based on CV keyword matching.

Indeed CV sifting is one part of their job. That's why they like LinkedIn ... everyone's kindly laying out their skills in a consistent manner and making their data available for consumption ( for a price paid to LinkedIn ).

Trying to change the current agency recruitment model is almost impossible from the contractors' end. By and large, the clients don't mind the model. They don't suffer the pain. It's not their problem and they have no incentive to change. Come April 2020 that may change of course!

There is an alternative though for the entrepreneurial contractor. It's totally outside IR35 and you get to do what you like, when you like, how you like. But it's tough to get into and not for everyone.

[Paralytic]

So basically a dating-agency model.

A large part of an agencies job today is pretty much swipe left or swipe right, based on CV keyword matching.

[tomtomagain]

Solution?

* An "agency" that services the contract market but focuses on introduction only. You offer the contractor a variety of domain-specific templates for IR35-compliant agreements and do effective selling to convince the client these are just as good as any contract that an intermediary would provide.
* Contractor agrees directly with client terms that would be as resilient to HMRC investigations as possible, both in working arrangements and contract.
* Contractors get to negotiate terms directly although the goal would be to default to a mutually compatible arrangement that protects and satisfies both.
* Agency takes the finders fee, but isn't an intermediary, no ongoing involvement, no liability. Agency might also upsell something like timesheeting and payment logging services, on the assumption that client/contractor won't have anything set up themselves.

So basically a dating-agency model.

I think there are a number of problems with it. Putting aside the ones that we answered when you posed a similar question back in July ( How do we break current crappy contractor system )

The main problem with this is that the dating-agency would need to charge a substantial introduction fee to cover all their costs ( CV sifting, advertising, office space, payroll etc). This fee is going to be many thousands of £. It's not going to be 50 quid. The cost of placing a person does not change for the agency.

So the client would need to be prepared to pay an upfront fee of say £10,000 and then be confident that they were going to keep the contractor for long enough for them to realise a saving.

And we alll know that in the real-world "stuff happens". The contractor turns out to be a lemon. The project get's cancelled. The budget gets pulled. Does the client get his finder's fee back?

As an example, say a contractor is engaged for 6 months on £400ppd with an agency taking 15%. Over 31 weeks the contractor bills ~ £62k, the agency adds on ~ £9k and the end client pays ~ £71k. In the traditional model the client is paying ~2.3k a week. Whereas in the dating-agency model, the client has to pay a lump sum, £10k and then £2k per week. They don't start to make a saving until month 7.

If you were buying a service from me would you like to pay £10k upfront and then £2k per week until you stopped using the service or £2.3k per week until you stopped using the service?

[WTFH]

I do this because I'm lucky enough to be highly technically specialised and I'm never short of work. Agencies will bend to accommodate me and probably won't fill their requirement if they don't. If they're taught to get their act together for me that'll only benefit someone else next time.

If you’re as good as your publicity, why are you using agencies all the time?
The real money is made by building relationships with clients and going direct to them.

[cloudcontractor]

This is how the esteemed 'nothernladuk' really sticks it to people when he's lost the argument. He'll give you a big old reputation downvote, which I'm sure feels very empowering to him, but is laughably pathetic to me.

[cloudcontractor]

Rather be a hapless sheep than a clueless one.

Oh you mean how you didn't respond when I told you I obviously knew what factoring was? Very pathetic - you thought you had a clever little gotcha there as if I didn't know exactly how these agencies work. The fact you think they're difficult when they're not just rather speaks to your own lack of capability - proportional to your post count it seems. You should focus on your gruel trough pal.

[northernladuk]

Rather be a hapless sheep than a clueless one.

[cloudcontractor]

I stopped reading here as you've obviously fail to comprehend the general feeling towards agencies on this forum (in as much as the entire community here can be grouped into a single entity).

I'll qualify so others won't feel offended - the hapless sheep who have espoused that view on this thread. Thought it was pretty clear I wasn't encompassing everyone as a hapless sheep - but yes it seems some things are just too subtle for others to catch.

[BR14]

Hey that was almost a full sentence - quite rare from the posts of yours I've seen.

by by

[cloudcontractor]

don't let the door slap your arse on the way out

Hey that was almost a full sentence - quite rare from the posts of yours I've seen.

[BR14]

some forums transpire not to be good places to have such a discussion

don't let the door slap your arse on the way out

[Paralytic]

I speak to clients and agents continuously about the need to properly comply with regulations - pointing out that this sudden arse-clenching over the April 2020 change is just the shifting of an existing liability - one that currently just sits on the contractors neck. These agencies, inexplicably beloved by the hapless sheep here <snip>

I stopped reading here as you've obviously fail to comprehend the general feeling towards agencies on this forum (in as much as the entire community here can be grouped into a single entity).

[cloudcontractor]

What have you actually DONE to change the things you are unhappy with?

I speak to clients and agents continuously about the need to properly comply with regulations - pointing out that this sudden arse-clenching over the April 2020 change is just the shifting of an existing liability - one that currently just sits on the contractors neck. These agencies, inexplicably beloved by the hapless sheep here, couldn't care less if they deliver you into an inside IR35 contract on a lie because they'll never be any comeback onto them - right now. The majority of contractors fail to appreciate this, and just want a job and to keep their head down, hoping the taxman never comes knocking. Might actually work too but I don't have any sympathy if you get caught clearly operating as a pseudo-employee and haven't done your due diligence on every engagement.

I do this because I'm lucky enough to be highly technically specialised and I'm never short of work. Agencies will bend to accommodate me and probably won't fill their requirement if they don't. If they're taught to get their act together for me that'll only benefit someone else next time.

So I hold them to account, make them change their contracts, educate the dopey cretins that work for them who have heard of this 'IR35' thing but don't know what it means. I attempt to start discussions on places like this to refine what a good agency would look like - and surely if I could work that out there would be a clear business opportunity there.

Cheerfully I'd had some PMs on here from people that agree with me but can't be arsed putting their opinion in front of the miserable naysayers here who think they know it all and are highly motivated, with post-counts in the 10s of thousands, to tell you just why you're wrong. Doesn't really matter - some forums transpire not to be good places to have such a discussion - particularly those with an ingrained kind of monoculture that doesn't like any hint of change - I suspect a lot of them will be accepting nice little permie roles sometime soon.

[Paralytic]

Not what I said at all. Did I talk about magic wands? My entire post was a discussion-starter about what better would look like - not demanding everything my own way. But you're clearly a rollover who doesn't believe anyone can make any meaningful change for the better when issues are clearly demonstrable. Worse, because you clearly don't have the kind of mentality to ever try to make changes, you're dismissive of others that do.

What's more likely is that I'll end up with exactly the contract I want, under the terms I want, and you'll keep eating the dung pies as they've served to you all the while insisting they taste just fine.

Meaningful change doesn't happen by someone posting a discussion to randomers on the internet - it happens through the action of proactive people. What have you actually DONE to change the things you are unhappy with? That's assuming you are unhappy with something - its not entirely clear from your posts so far.

A very Remainer-like mentality indeed. As myopic as the other Remoaner on this thread trying to call me naive. Just because you're too feeble to challenge a status quo doesn't mean it can't change - but thank Christ not everyone thinks as you do.

You should prorogue your agency.