Reply to: Guidance for new contractor please / How soon can I give notice?

[washed up contractor]

I'm really surprised and confused by these kinds of replies. In a business to business contractual relationship, why are the two parties' ethical responsibilities viewed so differently?

Client: Tells me they have the money signed off when they don't; suddenly stops giving me work part-way through a contract, or cancels it with no notice, and this is all considered fair play; just the way the business works, they are just following the contract T&Cs etc."

Contractor: Sticks to the T&C of his/her contract by giving notice and moving to another one. And this is unprofessional, mercenary, bad business, giving contractors a bad name etc.

Because dear boy (or girl), you are a one man band. While it is true contractors should see themselves as a business, many clients do not (even when you try and educate them).

You will never be seen as a "consultancy" by the vast majority of clients.

But, the bottom line for me when I was contracting was, if I was the other party, would I be hacked off with me as a contractor, if I suddenly jibbed them off. And almost every time I came to the conclusion yes, I would be hacked off.

What makes me laugh the most though is you newbies come on here and ask for advice from seasoned contractors, some who have sat on both sides of the interview and recruitment table. They give you advice based on their saged knowledge. And you promptly throw it out the window because you dont like what you're hearing.

It is your call, it is after all your career but please, dont waste our time getting upset over advice you asked for but dont like.

Toodle pip, old chap.

[northernladuk]

OK I think I'm getting it. It's not about who's right and who's wrong, it's about the customer is always right. So they can act in 'mercenary' fashion and that's their privilege as customer. I can't as I'm a supplier.

Jesus wept

[WTFH]

OK I think I'm getting it. It's not about who's right and who's wrong, it's about the customer is always right. So they can act in 'mercenary' fashion and that's their privilege as customer. I can't as I'm a supplier.

No, it's not "the customer is always right", it's not about them acting in a "mercenary fashion", it's not about their "privilege". It's about you being a professional business, intent on supplying customers.
If you want to be treated professionally, then be a bit less emotive in your words and attitude.

If you want to survive as a contractor, you have to be professional.

[SueEllen]

OK I think I'm getting it. It's not about who's right and who's wrong, it's about the customer is always right. So they can act in 'mercenary' fashion and that's their privilege as customer. I can't as I'm a supplier.

No you can't act mercenary but you are allowed to stop customers taking the p*ss. The way to do the latter is to read all the guides, read threads on here and talk to people.

[spoovy]

OK I think I'm getting it. It's not about who's right and who's wrong, it's about the customer is always right. So they can act in 'mercenary' fashion and that's their privilege as customer. I can't as I'm a supplier.

[WTFH]

I'm really surprised and confused by these kinds of replies. In a business to business contractual relationship, why are the two parties' ethical responsibilities viewed so differently?

Client: Tells me they have the money signed off when they don't; suddenly stops giving me work part-way through a contract, or cancels it with no notice, and this is all considered fair play; just the way the business works, they are just following the contract T&Cs etc."

Contractor: Sticks to the T&C of his/her contract by giving notice and moving to another one. And this is unprofessional, mercenary, bad business, giving contractors a bad name etc.

1. The client is the customer, you are the supplier. Customers can change suppliers without any major problem. But if a supplier says "I don't want to supply you", then the customer will not have a good opinion of that supplier.
2. You are only as good as your last contract. If your last contract was "I walked away", then you've not got much to support your claims about how good you are.
3. Your reputation is important. That reputation is amongst agents, clients, employees and other contractors. A bad reputation is hard to shake and a good one takes time to build.

Now, I've only been doing this lark for about 20 years, so maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.

Let me put point 1 another way: If you went into Waitrose to buy a loaf of bread, picked up the bread, took it to the checkout and the person at the check out took it off you, put it back on the shelves and said "we won't sell bread to you", would you consider Waitrose to be somewhere that you'd go to buy bread in the future? And then point 3 kicks in, which is you tell your friends, maybe post on twitter/facebook about your bad experience in Waitrose.
Now, while that example might help you understand what we're trying to tell you, it's also not that good. Waitrose (the supplier) has thousands of customers. If it was a shop that ONLY sold to you, and you had a choice of 5 other shops in town, then you'd take your business elsewhere.

[spoovy]

Oh deary me. No wonder contractors get a bad name.

I'm really surprised and confused by these kinds of replies. In a business to business contractual relationship, why are the two parties' ethical responsibilities viewed so differently?

Client: Tells me they have the money signed off when they don't; suddenly stops giving me work part-way through a contract, or cancels it with no notice, and this is all considered fair play; just the way the business works, they are just following the contract T&Cs etc."

Contractor: Sticks to the T&C of his/her contract by giving notice and moving to another one. And this is unprofessional, mercenary, bad business, giving contractors a bad name etc.

[washed up contractor]

Hello all. I'm new to this game so a bit of sanity checking/ advice would be greatly appreciated.

I've been looking for my first contract since leaving my perm role in mid-Feb and have just been offered one verbally, followed by an emailed contract example (my ltd company name is not mentioned or anything; it's like a template document). The role requires SC just to get on site, which I don't have, so they're offering me 50% pay for the ~6weeks they estimate it will take to get SC, during which time I'll stay home, doing whatever bits and pieces they can find for me (this is not clearly defined at the moment).

I've got a fair bit of interest going on elsewhere though; a couple of final/f2f interviews which look pretty promising, so I could potentially have a better offer in a week or so from elsewhere.

So my current thinking is to get back to the agent requesting a couple of small changes in the contract (I would like weekly rather than monthly invoicing/payment, for a couple of months at least, and some definition of my duties while awaiting SC clearance) and then to accept the contract "subject to a written signed contract arriving at my door". That should take a few days I would think, during which time I will keep looking elsewhere.

But, once the written contract has arrived, and in the absence of a better firm offer from elsewhere, I'd sign it, as I don't want to string anyone along, and a bird in the hand..

So my main question is, what if I signed the contract, then had a better offer shortly afterwards? Could I give notice (4 weeks) on the contract that I had just signed straight away? In which case -- it seems to me -- that as I couldn't get on site for at least a month anyway I'd be free to start somewhere else straight away.

This would feel a bit underhanded, but I have to think of my own finances here and ~6weeks at 50% would be a significant loss of income. The agent isn't a big one; not one I'd imagine using again so I'm not too worried about annoying them.

Decent plan? Horrible plan? Thanks.

Oh deary me. No wonder contractors get a bad name.

[SueEllen]

Thanks I'll have a good read of that. I appreciate your point, it's probably just a personal thing, down to me and how I want to run my business relationships.

If I seem mercenary it's probably because that's how the whole game seems to me so far. I've been messed around already by one client, telling me they wanted me for the role, then stringing me along for nearly two weeks then admitting they didn't have the money. Then there's this odd retainer deal that I'm currently asking about, which is messing me about again. And as you and others have said, clients effectively don't have to give notice anyway, they just stop giving you work and/or stop paying you. So it seems like the client side is pretty damn mercenary already.

The reason not to run your business like that is due to the fact that one day your name can appear on a client's list for interview and someone, whether they were permie or contractor, was at the SC place and remembered you screwed them over so you don't get the role after they have wasted your time at interview.

In regards to clients messing you around:
1. Always ask at interview if the role is signed off and questions about the project to know how long they actually need you. That way you will know whether the terms the agent are talking about are actually real.
2. Continue interviewing until you have a signed contract
3. Once you have signed don't stop looking until your feet our under the desk. If there is a long time between 2 and 3 then still interview. What you do if you are offered all the roles is up to you but it always helps you if you say you accept the role subject to contact.

As already said don't take the 50% retainer. The company should pay your full rate or not touch you with a barge pole as they should ask you enough questions to assert that you are very likely to get SC clearance and know how to utilise you while you haven't.

[northernladuk]

Just in the interest of balance this is all based on my opinion based on a few facts. There are plenty on here that think completely the opposite. I've surprised no one from the other camp has posted yet telling you to screw them, do what's best for you and use your notice periods as often as you want as a client would do the same to you.

It's not a wrong opinion but just not mine.

[malvolio]

I haven't signed anything or agreed terms. I'm just asking for opinions/advice.
Not sure where you got the idea that I'm moaning, or expecting anyone to agree with me.

The advice has been given. This gig is a potential nightmare. Binning clients for a better deal is a bad idea ultimately. You have to treat being a contractor as your full time job. And, just for completeness, you are right that you don't know enough to judge.

One more piece of advice. Go to www.ipse.co.uk, do the free registration thing and download their Guide to Freelancing, from the link on the front page after you scroll down a bit. Then study it, in depth. Then you can ask sensible questions.

[northernladuk]

Thanks I'll have a good read of that. I appreciate your point, it's probably just a personal thing, down to me and how I want to run my business relationships.

If I seem mercenary it's probably because that's how the whole game seems to me so far. I've been messed around already by one client, telling me they wanted me for the role, then stringing me along for nearly two weeks then admitting they didn't have the money. Then there's this odd retainer deal that I'm currently asking about, which is messing me about again. And as you and others have said, clients effectively don't have to give notice anyway, they just stop giving you work and/or stop paying you. So it seems like the client side is pretty damn mercenary already.

But they aren't messing you about. That's just the way of business sometimes. Yes OK, sometimes it's just a poor client taking the piss but I'm sure many don't set out purposely to do that. It takes many levels of governance to get to offer a gig to contractor so it's not a decision taken lightly in most cases. It happens at all levels, what about these companies that commit massive resources to apply to tenders that don't come off etc. It's just part of the game (most of the time). Putting you on a retainer isn't messing you about. It's an offer based on the situation that they want you but you can't get on site in the meantime. It's a pretty crappy one IMO but that's your decision. Take it or leave it, don't moan about it messing you about. It's business. Plenty of companies wait a month for a contractor to work permie notice so it's the other way around.. AND you are getting paid.

Again stopping work and not paying you isn't mercenary. It's part of the T&M way we work. It's in the contract and part of the supplier/client way of working. It's not all an even playing field anymore. There is position power in play here. If you don't like it. Get it written out of your contract that they must pay you. You'll move to inside IR35 and get taxed to high heaven so not really a win is it? You can't have your cake and eat it.

Don't be an agent/client hater. Change your opinion/attitude to be a contractor, act like a professional business and you'll have a great career.

[spoovy]

Thing is, this is a difficult situation to help you with. I doubt many posters would entertain a gig like this. It just sounds all wrong. The experienced guys know the likelihood of gigs like this evaporating, the fact that we have no faith in the SC process only taking 4 weeks (which means even more likely hood it evaporates) and so on. You are asking a question about morals in a situation many of us wouldn't entertain.

If you have agreed the terms with the agent and signed then you shouldn't be moaning or being mercenary. You were happy to sign so see it through. Don't sign and use it as a stop gap. What you really should do in such a crappy agreement then who knows. I'd say you are best doing what you want but don't expect everyone to agree with it.

I haven't signed anything or agreed terms. I'm just asking for opinions/advice.
Not sure where you got the idea that I'm moaning, or expecting anyone to agree with me.

[spoovy]

You are entering sensitive territory here and we've hotly debated this time and time again with the only answer really being do what you want. IMO you've got to act like a business now and that comes with a level of professionalism. Yes look after yourself to a certain extent but going full on mercenary and seeing the notice period as your easy out to dump clients chasing a couple of extra quid more is poor approach to business.
Every time you change you open yourself up to risk which can come back and bite you. Also if everyone had the same mercenary attitude the contracting landscape would be a nightmare with no notice period contracts, mistrust, mercenary attitudes on both sides etc. We've had people on here with the mercenary attitude and then come crying when the client dumped them for no reason. Can't have it both ways.

It's possible the next gig you dump your client for can evaporate leaving you heavily out of pocket in the long run. A few quid at the next gig doesn't cover many weeks on the bench when it goes wrong.

I'll try find the most recent thread where it backfired.

EDIT : Here it is

https://forums.contractoruk.com/busi...lp-needed.html

Thanks I'll have a good read of that. I appreciate your point, it's probably just a personal thing, down to me and how I want to run my business relationships.

If I seem mercenary it's probably because that's how the whole game seems to me so far. I've been messed around already by one client, telling me they wanted me for the role, then stringing me along for nearly two weeks then admitting they didn't have the money. Then there's this odd retainer deal that I'm currently asking about, which is messing me about again. And as you and others have said, clients effectively don't have to give notice anyway, they just stop giving you work and/or stop paying you. So it seems like the client side is pretty damn mercenary already.

[northernladuk]

If all I'm doing at the point I hand my notice in is sitting at home twiddling my thumbs waiting for SC to come through, then why not go work somewhere else during this period? As you said, they would certainly not be paying me for that 4-week period anyway, so would I really be expected to sit at home not doing any work or being paid by anyone just because it's technically within a notice period?



OK, but why? If I end up on this retainer deal for months only picking up 50% of my rate, and I jump to another contract, I would certainly be financially better off. The client wouldn't be happy, but what exactly is the consequence of that? I mean I don't *want* to p!ss clients off, but I have to put my family finances first, no?

Thanks again for the advice I really appreciate it.

Thing is, this is a difficult situation to help you with. I doubt many posters would entertain a gig like this. It just sounds all wrong. The experienced guys know the likelihood of gigs like this evaporating, the fact that we have no faith in the SC process only taking 4 weeks (which means even more likely hood it evaporates) and so on. You are asking a question about morals in a situation many of us wouldn't entertain.

If you have agreed the terms with the agent and signed then you shouldn't be moaning or being mercenary. You were happy to sign so see it through. Don't sign and use it as a stop gap. What you really should do in such a crappy agreement then who knows. I'd say you are best doing what you want but don't expect everyone to agree with it.