Reply to: continue working on a fixed term contract without a signed extension

[calder]

thank you all for your recommendations. I do agree that I don't want to work without a written contract. I will be polite and respectful but firm. I'll tell them I'll be happy to take a break between the end of this contract and the start of the new one should they need some time to get the new contract signed. I do understand there is a risk that they might choose to replace me, but:
1) I take the risk (I have started looking elsewhere)
2) I don't want to work without a contract because it puts in a very weak and uncomfortable position
3) if i accept to work without a contract, they will probably jump to the conclusion that I am desperate, can't go anywhere... and they will probably think they can bully me as they wish

[VillageContractor]

Fixed

[TheFaQQer]

Surely it's worse to work with a contract?

[VillageContractor]

continue working on a fixed term contract without a signed extension

Didn't realise it was a competition. DGAS if it is, it won't alter my argument

However, which has the stronger bargaining position: an employee you want to keep or an unemployed new job applicant needing a whole new FTC?

The correct answer is for the OP to get an extension to his existing FTC, but that does require some work from the employer. And the option of continuing to work still stands except that the existing FTC won't still be in effect, so it is not clear on what basis the OP will be working, which is why it's a bad idea to walk out and try to come back. It needs resolving before the FTC expires.

Why is it a bad idea to walk out and try and come back. Surely it's worse to work without a contract? Just because you've been working while out of contract is no guarantee for the business to extend your or even pay you.

In case no one has said this you should start looking for another role, if you get and don't want it then you have more leverage in your negotiations

[malvolio]

Keep going.. You've got him on the back foot. I think you can win this one.

Didn't realise it was a competition. DGAS if it is, it won't alter my argument

However, which has the stronger bargaining position: an employee you want to keep or an unemployed new job applicant needing a whole new FTC?

The correct answer is for the OP to get an extension to his existing FTC, but that does require some work from the employer. And the option of continuing to work still stands except that the existing FTC won't still be in effect, so it is not clear on what basis the OP will be working, which is why it's a bad idea to walk out and try to come back. It needs resolving before the FTC expires.

[northernladuk]

Of course you have bargaining power. If they need you then you have some power - maybe not a lot though, only OP will know

Keep going.. You've got him on the back foot. I think you can win this one.

[VillageContractor]

Agreed, but I was trying to clarify the position in response to those who seem to have no proper understanding of FTCs and are advocating the conventional withdrawal of labour approach.

And if you don't renew an FTC, you're no longer employed so don't have a lot of bargaining power...

Of course you have bargaining power. If they need you then you have some power - maybe not a lot though, only OP will know

[malvolio]

But if he's at the end of his FTC then he's not bound by any of the rules, unless they extend. But I agree play hard ball otherwise you're left open to risk

Agreed, but I was trying to clarify the position in response to those who seem to have no proper understanding of FTCs and are advocating the conventional withdrawal of labour approach.

And if you don't renew an FTC, you're no longer employed so don't have a lot of bargaining power...

[VillageContractor]

It's an FTC. That's a conventional permie employment contract with a set end date and restrictions on access to things like pension rights and redundancy payments (i.e. there aren't any) You cannot treat it like a freelance contract.

So, for example, you can't simply decide to take time off, you have a limited holiday allocation and beyond that you don't get paid. Stretch that too far and you are dismissed for gross misconduct. And so on.

Also, it's a while since I looked but various employment rights accrue after two years anyway. Meaning the OP will probably need a whole new contract. It may look exactly the same as the current one.

Finally, if he continues working without a new contract, normally the terms of the old one will still apply by default. However, one of those terms is that the employment stops at a set date.

I don't know the answer but I suspect playing hardball with the OP's employer is a necessary step.

But if he's at the end of his FTC then he's not bound by any of the rules, unless they extend. But I agree play hard ball otherwise you're left open to risk

[malvolio]

Not sure how fixed term differentiates from 'normal' but under normal circumstances I'd be letting the client know that I'd be taking time off at the end of the current contract until the new contract/extension is in place.

If client is bothered about that it's up to them to get their paperwork sorted in time.

The risk with working without a contract in place is that even though those you work with want to keep you on, until it's in writing then higher management may have other ideas.

It's an FTC. That's a conventional permie employment contract with a set end date and restrictions on access to things like pension rights and redundancy payments (i.e. there aren't any) You cannot treat it like a freelance contract.

So, for example, you can't simply decide to take time off, you have a limited holiday allocation and beyond that you don't get paid. Stretch that too far and you are dismissed for gross misconduct. And so on.

Also, it's a while since I looked but various employment rights accrue after two years anyway. Meaning the OP will probably need a whole new contract. It may look exactly the same as the current one.

Finally, if he continues working without a new contract, normally the terms of the old one will still apply by default. However, one of those terms is that the employment stops at a set date.

I don't know the answer but I suspect playing hardball with the OP's employer is a necessary step.

[Hobosapien]

Not sure how fixed term differentiates from 'normal' but under normal circumstances I'd be letting the client know that I'd be taking time off at the end of the current contract until the new contract/extension is in place.

If client is bothered about that it's up to them to get their paperwork sorted in time.

The risk with working without a contract in place is that even though those you work with want to keep you on, until it's in writing then higher management may have other ideas.

[greenlake]

My employer wants to extend me for a further 6 months but they told me it will take another few weeks before they can send me the extension contract.

Have an addendum drawn up and added to your existing contract to extend the duration of the original term by six months, with all other terms remaining unchanged. As long as the budget is in place, this shouldn't take more than a few days at most.

[northernladuk]

I believe this page answers the OPs question.

https://www.gov.uk/fixed-term-contra...dterm-contract

[Lance]

Never a good idea to work without a contract. You are at real risk of not being paid.

There are also insurance considerations - some clients are in breach of their liability insurances if someone is working on site without a contract in place to be there. Double check with your contact whether they have considered this.

Similarly, some clients have IT systems that kick in to disable building and system access when a fixed term contract expires - will you still be able to deliver?

You could get a letter of intent from the client, confirming that they will pay any invoices raised during the gap. However, if that's something the manager knocks up without their legal team's consent, you have to wonder if it's enforceable and, if it is, why they can't knock up a full on contract instead.

I've not seen any evidence either way but I wonder if working outside of a contract is a MOO indicator? My gut says that it is a different matter entirely but it popped into my head as something else to check out.

If a Fixed Term Contract it’s inside IR35 anyway so MOO is moot

It’s an employment contract with a definite end date though. So I would be wary about working without something written down. Best to discuss with the manager. If you’ve been there 2 years you have a good relationship with them.

[ladymuck]

Never a good idea to work without a contract. You are at real risk of not being paid.

There are also insurance considerations - some clients are in breach of their liability insurances if someone is working on site without a contract in place to be there. Double check with your contact whether they have considered this.

Similarly, some clients have IT systems that kick in to disable building and system access when a fixed term contract expires - will you still be able to deliver?

You could get a letter of intent from the client, confirming that they will pay any invoices raised during the gap. However, if that's something the manager knocks up without their legal team's consent, you have to wonder if it's enforceable and, if it is, why they can't knock up a full on contract instead.

I've not seen any evidence either way but I wonder if working outside of a contract is a MOO indicator? My gut says that it is a different matter entirely but it popped into my head as something else to check out.