Reply to: Perm->Contract - How to handle notice period

[SueEllen]

Thanks for the advice all. The company are messing me around in terms of interview time, so I've decided to withdraw my application as I see this as a bad sign, and having read the comments maybe I am not as interested in the role as I thought!

Will keep my head down into next year and look to get some extra window-dressing on my CV, then look to contract as a BA end of next year, but aim for a higher day rate - £450-500.

My rationale for this:
- Ability to benefit from wife's tax allowance (low hours due to childcare);
- Will keep child benefit rather than paying some/all of it back;
- 47 weeks working at £450 a day is £105,750. Less £12,000 pension contribution, £93,750, less costs £12000 = £81,750 * 0.7 (approx. take-home) = £4,768.75 plays £3,265. OK there are periods between contracts, but this is a relatively conservative calculation.

You are presuming too many weeks of work - you have ignored times when the client doesn't want you to work e.g. around Christmas - this can be 3 weeks, when the wife is really sick and you have to look after the kids, when you have to take time off to go for a medical appointment, see one of the kid's plays (yes you have to) etc. As well as time between contracts - you need this so you don't burn out.

In addition as a BA starting out the agency won't let you earn £450 - £500 a day as you are a risk against someone who has been contracting for years. The rate is more likely to be £100 less than that.

Added to that you don't want to clear your bank account out. You need to keep a warchest for when you don't get a contract.

[MrMarkyMark]

I've never seen a contract with that level of detail.
A project name is what I insist on, then I invoice items against that project (whether that be design, build, deploy, test, document or handover)
Until I've told them how to do the project how could they possibly know every item to be delivered?

My second to last last one did.
It saved me from looking at other problem areas, as I could categorically say, I can give advice, but I'm but I'm not being engaged to look at that part.

The one I just finished the brief was clear, consultancy and advisory to solve all reporting issues and enable delivery.
In fact I probably only performed a few simple changes myself, but advised on how to do many others, how to get the most bang for your buck etc.

[fiisch]

Thanks for the advice all. The company are messing me around in terms of interview time, so I've decided to withdraw my application as I see this as a bad sign, and having read the comments maybe I am not as interested in the role as I thought!

Will keep my head down into next year and look to get some extra window-dressing on my CV, then look to contract as a BA end of next year, but aim for a higher day rate - £450-500.

My rationale for this:
- Ability to benefit from wife's tax allowance (low hours due to childcare);
- Will keep child benefit rather than paying some/all of it back;
- 47 weeks working at £450 a day is £105,750. Less £12,000 pension contribution, £93,750, less costs £12000 = £81,750 * 0.7 (approx. take-home) = £4,768.75 plays £3,265. OK there are periods between contracts, but this is a relatively conservative calculation.

[SueEllen]

I've never seen a contract with that level of detail.
A project name is what I insist on, then I invoice items against that project (whether that be design, build, deploy, test, document or handover)
Until I've told them how to do the project how could they possibly know every item to be delivered?

There are some boring tedious tasks that can't be itemised like that but are part of your deliverables.

For example if you are working on a system that needs some testing done and you have in your deliverables that you need to ensure the system is tested to a certain standard even though you don't have to personally do the testing, then if there is no test data and the permies don't want to create the initial files because making up and copying stuff is boring then you can end up doing it.

[Lance]

but....

Its part of the project and should be itemized as a deliverable on your contract ideally.

LM is talking about more adhoc requests.

I've never seen a contract with that level of detail.
A project name is what I insist on, then I invoice items against that project (whether that be design, build, deploy, test, document or handover)
Until I've told them how to do the project how could they possibly know every item to be delivered?

[LondonManc]

but....

Its part of the project and should be itemized as a deliverable on your contract ideally.

LM is talking about more adhoc requests.

Correct. It's one thing digging someone out of the doodoo as a one-off but to become the departmental go-to resource for SQL query performance tuning if you're there to design a data mart isn't anything other than becoming part and parcel. I'd have to seriously consider going back perm if I started enjoying that sort of carp again.

[MrMarkyMark]

So if doing 20 Windows Server builds is part of your project, the client has no automation tools and there's no business justification to put them in place because the work is a one off, who do you think will have to do them? Sadly, you won't get to put that on to a permie and it is going to form part of your deliverables, if you're building a new infrastructure for someone.

There are plenty more anecdotal examples I can come up with if required

but....

Its part of the project and should be itemized as a deliverable on your contract ideally.

LM is talking about more adhoc requests.

[mattfx]

The inside IR35 contractor if he accepts them and they're not in his project deliverables? *cough* MoO *cough* part and parcel

So if doing 20 Windows Server builds is part of your project, the client has no automation tools and there's no business justification to put them in place because the work is a one off, who do you think will have to do them? Sadly, you won't get to put that on to a permie and it is going to form part of your deliverables, if you're building a new infrastructure for someone.

There are plenty more anecdotal examples I can come up with if required

[LondonManc]

OP a 60k P/A permie position where you've great life balance and are home by 6pm is absolutely not to be snorted at. Many on this forum travel hundreds of miles a week and put up with overnight stays in hotels away from their families to make not a dissimilar amount of take home by the time you've factored in a holiday or two plus a furlough at Christmas.

Honestly, i'd stick rather than twist in your position. For me getting out of perm was a bit different - I had a 10 minute drive to work, often got to knock off before 5pm, rarely rolled in before 9... But I was only on 44k - so the monetary incentives were far greater.

I do understand what you mean about wanting to be stretched and challenged, but some contract roles are a lot more dull than you think. People want tasks doing and oftentimes permies don't want to do them if they're boring and repetitive... So guess who gets given them? Don't go into this with rose tinted glasses.

The inside IR35 contractor if he accepts them and they're not in his project deliverables? *cough* MoO *cough* part and parcel

[BlasterBates]

The choice is usually between boring or stressful. Boring usually means you have a "cushy" number, which you will probably miss if you end up in an interesting role where you will probably be stressed to the eyeballs.

[mattfx]

OP a 60k P/A permie position where you've great life balance and are home by 6pm is absolutely not to be snorted at. Many on this forum travel hundreds of miles a week and put up with overnight stays in hotels away from their families to make not a dissimilar amount of take home by the time you've factored in a holiday or two plus a furlough at Christmas.

Honestly, i'd stick rather than twist in your position. For me getting out of perm was a bit different - I had a 10 minute drive to work, often got to knock off before 5pm, rarely rolled in before 9... But I was only on 44k - so the monetary incentives were far greater.

I do understand what you mean about wanting to be stretched and challenged, but some contract roles are a lot more dull than you think. People want tasks doing and oftentimes permies don't want to do them if they're boring and repetitive... So guess who gets given them? Don't go into this with rose tinted glasses.

[MrMarkyMark]

FTFY

Throw all your money on black. Take it from there.

[northernladyuk]

Hello, first post on these forums!

I have worked as a Business Analyst for the last five years in the insurance industry, more recently specialising in the IT side. I joined my current role in January - originally applied as a permanent staff member, but due to resourcing constraints I ended up joining as a contractor, so I fell into the contracting gig by accident.

After six months, the company persuaded me to switch to permanent - I had a young baby at home, and the job is - almost literally - on my doorstep. Being a contractor, it meant that I managed to negotiate a fairly lucrative wage as a permanent member of staff, however I am bored senseless. The project is incredibly busy, but I seem to have been marginalised, and am not asked to do a great deal. I am growing wearisome of being proactive and seeking out work, and the promise of development (a key reason for accepting the perm role) has not been fulfilled.

Being permanent and now completed probation, I am subject to a three month notice period. Via my network, I have a telephone interview for a contract role in testing which I am hopeful of securing. I don't have a great deal of information on the role, but I suspect three months will be unacceptable to the new job.

How do I best go about approaching the subject of my notice if/when asked during the interview? Is it a case that when/if I decide to take the plunge, I will need to hand my notice in and then hope to secure a role nearing the expiry of my notice?

My motivation for moving is largely about job satisfaction - financially, once you take into account pension, holiday etc., the move would not be especially lucrative, but currently I feel like I'm treading water and, still being in my early 30s, I am ambitious and hungry to learn. Has anyone else been in a similar position? What did you do?

Get the contract. Tell your employer you are bored and you would like to drastically shorten your notice. Take it from there.

[MrMarkyMark]

having seen several permies recently walked out the door recently with 20 years+ in the company, not allowed to return to their desks (apart from one chap who had a porn collection to collect) it depends, I have never left a contract early

References these days are

Position
start date, End date

anything else leaves the issuing company in hot water, so they dont these days

Largely true, unless some chunt you previously knew sticks his oar in.
Although I was blatantly told this in the Client Co 2nd interview, it was not "official", but "official" does not count for jack, in those circumstances.

I didn't leave that particular contract early either.

Seeing him around the first couple of times and not going ahead and punching him out was difficult

[LondonManc]

Thanks all - I know the right thing to do, but similarly I am frustrated that the job is not what it was promised (i.e.: I have been left to rot without sufficient work to keep me busy). This, on what is a very busy programme, is bizarre, but the project team is a mixture of people running around like headless chickens being impossibly busy, too busy to train up or instruct the remainder who scratch around like hungry chickens desperately trying to fill their time!!

Financially, I am currently on £60k a year with no commute costs. I leave for work at 7am each morning, have time for a morning gym/swim, and am home eating dinner with my family before 6. On that score, I really can have no complaints.

Proposed contracting role is in the region of £350-400 a day, so once pension; annual leave and periods out of work considered, I don't think it'd be a significant bump. However, I do think I'd find the job more stimulating.

Interview bumped until tomorrow, which is never a good sign. Will see what they say, but be honest re.: notice. Suspect they will pass, but I need to focus in the New Year. If no change by May, hand my notice in ready to take advantage of the post-summer surge of contracts....

Surge in contracts? Hehe.

If you're on 60k a year and have an easy day, why risk putting yourself into a temporary situation that you may not like? Not only that, you'll find the second contract harder to find, especially if there's no "friend of a friend" to find it. Also, what as, a tester or BA?