Reply to: Large Indian Consultancies/IT Companies

[cojak]

I have made myself clear on this before. Bob is not a term that we approve of these days and any time I come across it I will change it to the correct reference.

[northernladuk]

Brummie's thread derailment has been moved to General.

Right... But the bit about Bobs stays?

I thought bobble heads were those little desktop things. Is it a racist term as well?

[NotAllThere]

Brummie's thread derailment has been moved to General.

[SueEllen]

So it's not bob as in bobble head ?

That would be clearly racist and no-one wants to get banned.

[radish2008]

from Bob Shawadiwadi. King of plenty cheapness and much quickness. Was rather amusing if you were there but it's not become a term of any offshore worker of questionable quality so a little racist and frowned upon nowadays. Actually that's a coincidence we've mentioned it today what with the Joey D discussion going on in General.

Bob Shawadiwadi

So it's not bob as in bobble head ?

[SueEllen]

Thanks - I mean I always ask the client a lot of questions about what the role is, what needs to be done etc, but i don't think in the space of an interview I've ever been able to come away with something along the lines of a documentable statement of work. But challenge accepted for the next one

What about if the contract is a short term one, but for a long term project? e.g. initial 3 or 6 month contract but you know full well the project is much longer because its proposed delivery date is 14 months away? Say I was on 3 months (and it was in definition stage or something), how would you put in the key deliverable unless you can actually see their proposed plan at that point? Also, they cant send you anything until you have your bum on the seat and they have given you an email address, so not like you can receive a high level plan and roughly work out what you would deliver in your first 3 months.

I cant believe I have never done anything like this - I really have spent the last 15 years just singing the contracts (last few years have had QDOS and IPSE check) and never put anything in there about tasks or deliverables. Only every a job title (which is typically specific to a programme name, rather than a generic BAU role).

The client won't be able to tell you more than they have told you in the interview.

However they should tell you what they expect you to deliver in your contract period.

You also know what people with your job title are expected to do and so you need to see at interview if they have the same understanding as you.

[blossom]

I ask the client at interview what they expect me to do etc.

Interviews are a two way process and clients think you are more interested in their project if you ask a few questions.

I then tell my reviewer what I have learnt and it goes in the contract, normally in the schedule.

The agent knows SFA about what the role involves day to day.

Thanks - I mean I always ask the client a lot of questions about what the role is, what needs to be done etc, but i don't think in the space of an interview I've ever been able to come away with something along the lines of a documentable statement of work. But challenge accepted for the next one

What about if the contract is a short term one, but for a long term project? e.g. initial 3 or 6 month contract but you know full well the project is much longer because its proposed delivery date is 14 months away? Say I was on 3 months (and it was in definition stage or something), how would you put in the key deliverable unless you can actually see their proposed plan at that point? Also, they cant send you anything until you have your bum on the seat and they have given you an email address, so not like you can receive a high level plan and roughly work out what you would deliver in your first 3 months.

I cant believe I have never done anything like this - I really have spent the last 15 years just singing the contracts (last few years have had QDOS and IPSE check) and never put anything in there about tasks or deliverables. Only every a job title (which is typically specific to a programme name, rather than a generic BAU role).

[SueEllen]

ahhh, interesting. actually written into the contract? I've never done/had that before, but it's been on my mind and I want to do this on my next one. How do you define those tasks upfront though or who defines them?

If you go for an interview, be successul, they offer the role, the agency issues the contract etc, is there a point in this process where you have another call with the client and agree a specific set of tasks and deliverable?

I ask the client at interview what they expect me to do etc.

Interviews are a two way process and clients think you are more interested in their project if you ask a few questions.

I then tell my reviewer what I have learnt and it goes in the contract, normally in the schedule.

The agent knows SFA about what the role involves day to day.

[northernladuk]

Oh and check the web. Lots of great resources.

Here is a good one explaining MoO and it touches on your not having a defined set of deliverables as well...

[northernladuk]

thank you - very glad i joined this forum - been contracting for a long time but a lot to learn on this front...totally different approach to how ive done things, but i have always been told that my contracts are outside. There seems to be a lot i can do to make that more concrete.

There are 3 pillars. RoS, MoO and D&C really. If you pass any of those you tend to be OK. The rest is noise that will cause problems in close run cases but doesn't mean you can ignore them. Ignore enough and it's going get harder and harder to defend. I'm talking about all the theory here and you can't adhere to it all or worry about it or we'd never work or sleep. People should however know the theory so they can then bend it to suit and understand why they are doing it.

The contract check is pretty straightforward and it comes down to standard clauses. What many don't understand is that working practices trump contracts. You could have a great contract but walk in and start acting like an employee. You've effectively put yourself inside regardless of what the contract says. They have to match.

If you want to chat about any area around this check the search method I mentioned earlier. We've debated all of it in depth at some point or other.

[blossom]

That's a job title. Very bad. You are there to deliver a set piece of work for the client. If they want just someone they can allocate tasks to they get an employee. By allocating you tasks that you can't control you fall foul of Direction and Control. There are grey areas here and some can be defendable but just coming in with what is effectively a job title and then being given ad hoc work at the clients whim is D&C and an MoO problem.

Mentioned here amongst many other places...


You leave. The work is complete and the contract has come to an end. If the client is obliged to give you notice they could end up finding you something else to do which is very bad.

Your builder quotes for 10 days to build a wall. He does it in 8. What happens? He leaves, work is complete. That is why you should have deliverables.

Don't forget though... Notice periods are for permies. You can leave without one, they can bin you off without one. No one is going to go legal over it so don't think your safe with them in. You could give your notice and they could just as quickly ask you not to bother coming in again. They've effectively terminated you on the spot.

thank you - very glad i joined this forum - been contracting for a long time but a lot to learn on this front...totally different approach to how ive done things, but i have always been told that my contracts are outside. There seems to be a lot i can do to make that more concrete.

[blossom]

from Bob Shawadiwadi. King of plenty cheapness and much quickness. Was rather amusing if you were there but it's not become a term of any offshore worker of questionable quality so a little racist and frowned upon nowadays. Actually that's a coincidence we've mentioned it today what with the Joey D discussion going on in General.

[northernladuk]

also, what is a 'bob' in this context? I've seen a few people mentions bobs.?

from Bob Shawadiwadi. King of plenty cheapness and much quickness. Was rather amusing if you were there but it's not become a term of any offshore worker of questionable quality so a little racist and frowned upon nowadays. Actually that's a coincidence we've mentioned it today what with the Joey D discussion going on in General.

http://shawadiwadi.blogspot.co.uk/

[northernladuk]

To what extent do you define your work in your contracts? e.g. mine might just say 'IT Programme Manager - Project Blah-di-blah'. It doesn't state what I am there to deliver in a detailed schedule of works...Although I think it probably should? Maybe i'm only engaged to deliver a specific phase, as agreed in the interview. So, if the work is completed, and I have no notice period, what happens then?

That's a job title. Very bad. You are there to deliver a set piece of work for the client. If they want just someone they can allocate tasks to they get an employee. By allocating you tasks that you can't control you fall foul of Direction and Control. There are grey areas here and some can be defendable but just coming in with what is effectively a job title and then being given ad hoc work at the clients whim is D&C and an MoO problem.

Mentioned here amongst many other places...

http://www.contractoruk.com/contract..._contract.html

So, if the work is completed, and I have no notice period, what happens then?

You leave. The work is complete and the contract has come to an end. If the client is obliged to give you notice they could end up finding you something else to do which is very bad.

Your builder quotes for 10 days to build a wall. He does it in 8. What happens? He leaves, work is complete. That is why you should have deliverables.

Don't forget though... Notice periods are for permies. You can leave without one, they can bin you off without one. No one is going to go legal over it so don't think your safe with them in. You could give your notice and they could just as quickly ask you not to bother coming in again. They've effectively terminated you on the spot.

[blossom]

Bob

also, what is a 'bob' in this context? I've seen a few people mentions bobs.?