Reply to: Want to break current contract to work elsewhere

[billybiro]

Consultancies both small and large do that with their direct clients.

The client normally then wants to meet you and in some of those meetings they definitely don't ask you about how you can do the work.

However you only find such roles by networking.

You're misconstruing my words.

You're talking about genuine, bona-fide consultancies. I don't disagree with you that this is exactly the kind of thing that happens in genuine consultancies, especially the bigger ones.

I'm talking about the average contractor, working as a one-man (or occasionally two-man) band behind a Limited PSC, which most of us on here conform to. Genuine "consultancies" we be not. Such contractors will virtually never be able to do as I said in my previous post, even if such contractors are working for an end-client via a consultancy. The consultancy will have the RoS with the end-client, but the contractor's contract is with either the consultancy or the agency. They almost certainly won't have a genuine RoS with the agency/consultancy.

I have an increasing feeling that you know this, but are being purposely obtuse and changing what I've said in an obvious strawman to attempt to debunk my original assertion.

[SueEllen]

I did read your second sentence.

Again, the experience of most people is that the client will not accept a "proper" RoS situation. Some (i.e. a small minority) clients will accept a substitute if either a) the sub is well known to the client or they (the client) is able and willing to perform extensive due diligence of the proposed sub and find them fit to do the job (and many clients will go through these motions only to say that the sub isn't fit to do the job as they simply don't want a different person doing the job).

Most (i.e. the vast majority) of clients simply won't entertain the notion of a different person coming on site to them as part of a contract that (in the client's eyes) was awarded to YOU, personally.

Again, this is why clients interview YOU personally to ascertain YOUR skill and ability to do the job, not your Limited's ability to do the job. It's also why most clients, some on the surface but more deep down, see contractors as nothing more than "temporary permies". It's why most of the time you're required to be a bum on a seat (like the permies), largely toe the line regarding office policies - start/end times etc. (like the permies) and expected to get involved in all sorts of office meetings/training/pep talks etc. (like the permies).

Here's a test. Let's say you're a C#/.NET Developer (replace the relevant skills with whatever you do). Next contract, when speaking to either the agent or the client explain to them that you have absolutely ZERO skills required for the job, but that YOU, personally, are not going to be doing the job. You're talking to the agent and being "interviewed" by the client in the capacity of director and representative of your Limited only. You tell the agent/client that when they award you the contract (hmm, yeah!) you'll supply a suitable person (whom the client and agent will have never met before) for the work. Try that out and let me know how you get on.

Consultancies both small and large do that with their direct clients.

The client normally then wants to meet you and in some of those meetings they definitely don't ask you about how you can do the work.

However you only find such roles by networking.

[billybiro]

Read my second sentence - gives you a clue of what clients are happy to accept.

I did read your second sentence.

Again, the experience of most people is that the client will not accept a "proper" RoS situation. Some (i.e. a small minority) clients will accept a substitute if either a) the sub is well known to the client or they (the client) is able and willing to perform extensive due diligence of the proposed sub and find them fit to do the job (and many clients will go through these motions only to say that the sub isn't fit to do the job as they simply don't want a different person doing the job).

Most (i.e. the vast majority) of clients simply won't entertain the notion of a different person coming on site to them as part of a contract that (in the client's eyes) was awarded to YOU, personally.

Again, this is why clients interview YOU personally to ascertain YOUR skill and ability to do the job, not your Limited's ability to do the job. It's also why most clients, some on the surface but more deep down, see contractors as nothing more than "temporary permies". It's why most of the time you're required to be a bum on a seat (like the permies), largely toe the line regarding office policies - start/end times etc. (like the permies) and expected to get involved in all sorts of office meetings/training/pep talks etc. (like the permies).

Here's a test. Let's say you're a C#/.NET Developer (replace the relevant skills with whatever you do). Next contract, when speaking to either the agent or the client explain to them that you have absolutely ZERO skills required for the job, but that YOU, personally, are not going to be doing the job. You're talking to the agent and being "interviewed" by the client in the capacity of director and representative of your Limited only. You tell the agent/client that when they award you the contract (hmm, yeah!) you'll supply a suitable person (whom the client and agent will have never met before) for the work. Try that out and let me know how you get on.

[SueEllen]

Yes, mine and the vast majority of other people's experiences, if the posts on here and many other places on the internet as well as the conversations I have with numerous other contractor colleagues in the real world are anything to go by.

I'd love to be proven wrong on this, and would love to know of this long list of clients who are more than willing to engage with a one-man band PSC and fully allow a real RoS clause to be enforced without batting an eyelid, but I'm still waiting for the evidence.

Read my second sentence - gives you a clue of what clients are happy to accept.

[billybiro]

In your experience.

If the client already knows the sub, or you use two people from the beginning then this isn't an issue.

Yes, mine and the vast majority of other people's experiences, if the posts on here and many other places on the internet as well as the conversations I have with numerous other contractor colleagues in the real world are anything to go by.

I'd love to be proven wrong on this, and would love to know of this long list of clients who are more than willing to engage with a one-man band PSC and fully allow a real RoS clause to be enforced without batting an eyelid, but I'm still waiting for the evidence.

[SueEllen]

You're right. In the real-world, 99% of contractor's RoS clauses are a sham as the client would never entertain the idea of another person coming in under the same contract (that's why, at the beginning, the client interviews YOU and asks about YOUR personal skills and ability to do the job, not whether your "Limited" can do the job).

In your experience.

If the client already knows the sub, or you use two people from the beginning then this isn't an issue.

[billybiro]

Realistically this rarely happens, does it.

You're right. In the real-world, 99% of contractor's RoS clauses are a sham as the client would never entertain the idea of another person coming in under the same contract (that's why, at the beginning, the client interviews YOU and asks about YOUR personal skills and ability to do the job, not whether your "Limited" can do the job).

However, if the OP's contract does have a RoS clause, then having the OP attempt to strictly enforce the right to substitute could force the client's hand and have them terminate OP's contract with probably zero notice at all!

[shedges76]

Why not take a week or two off? You've been there 4 years I'd want a break.

Believe it or not... I have actually taken breaks during that time. I know the stereotype is of a contractor works every day possible, but that's not me. I have to have a holiday now and again. Keeps me sane. And while the business bank account as a few £100s less in it, it's worth it imo.

[gables]

Thanks for the replies.

I am on good terms with current client, hence 4+ years and counting. If I do get offered the other role I'll obviously offer to work my notice here. Was just interested to hear if others had done this and what their experience was.

The project I'm on (which is the only IT project client is currently running, due to its size) has quietened down recently, with 30th June being a big deadline. Also, senior IT leadership keeps stating how they want to alter the % split of contractors vs perm staff... of course, the wrong way for me.

So I think I'm justified in looking elsewhere... it's just difficult to get one contract to start exactly as the other ends. That's life I guess.

Fingers crossed I get to use the benefit of your wisdom all

Why not take a week or two off? You've been there 4 years I'd want a break.

[shedges76]

Thanks for the replies.

I am on good terms with current client, hence 4+ years and counting. If I do get offered the other role I'll obviously offer to work my notice here. Was just interested to hear if others had done this and what their experience was.

The project I'm on (which is the only IT project client is currently running, due to its size) has quietened down recently, with 30th June being a big deadline. Also, senior IT leadership keeps stating how they want to alter the % split of contractors vs perm staff... of course, the wrong way for me.

So I think I'm justified in looking elsewhere... it's just difficult to get one contract to start exactly as the other ends. That's life I guess.

Fingers crossed I get to use the benefit of your wisdom all

[kaiser78]

You have not got the gig yet! Wait until you get the gig. Once client has made their mind up they tend to want to wait for the person they want.

Give 1 month on your current contract to your agent. Inform the client out of politeness.

How busy are you? Do you mind burning bridges? Can you invoke your right of substitution?

Generally its best to work out your notice. If not throw a sickie.

Realistically this rarely happens, does it.

OP - you should check you contract to see what the notice period is, secure the new role, serve notice to current client, leave on happy terms with current client. Don't worry about repeat work if your skills are transferable. If they are niche then tread a little more carefully.

[northernladuk]

Hi All.
Also, who do I officially terminate with?... my agency, or the company I'm providing services to?

You need to understand this better. It's what you do.. Hint.. CONTRACTor. This is your livelihood and your business. Need to get a grasp of the basics.

[BrilloPad]

You have not got the gig yet! Wait until you get the gig. Once client has made their mind up they tend to want to wait for the person they want.

Give 1 month on your current contract to your agent. Inform the client out of politeness.

How busy are you? Do you mind burning bridges? Can you invoke your right of substitution?

Generally its best to work out your notice. If not throw a sickie.

[MrMarkyMark]

If I get the gig I went for, I'll be wanting to terminate my current contract with 2 months to go on it. Could that cause problems? And is my current client likely to make me work my 1 month notice period? Everything I've read on here suggests notice periods are meaningless in the case of a Ltd company, providing services, contract... at least it is when the shoe is on the other foot. Just trying to work out what to expect.

If you've been in this situation before what did you do and how did it go?

Also, who do I officially terminate with?... my agency, or the company I'm providing services to?

Any experience / help / stories much appreciated

Have you read your contract?
Who is it with?
What does it say with regards to you terminating early, re. the notice?

If you want stories, I suggest you post in General, its the "Readers Wives" of CUK.
General

Plenty of good story tellers on there.

HTH.

[TheFaQQer]

If I get the gig I went for, I'll be wanting to terminate my current contract with 2 months to go on it. Could that cause problems?

Maybe - the agent will get annoyed. The client may be annoyed. And if they have the chance in the future where they can work with someone else instead of you, there's always the risk that they will remember the past and decide to work with someone else instead of you. Alternatively, the client or agency may not care and will work with you again in a heartbeat for whatever reason.

And is my current client likely to make me work my 1 month notice period?

You know your client better than anyone on here - how well do they need you? If they need you and there's no-one else that can step in to do your work quickly then I would expect the client to try to hold you to the contract that you signed and complete your notice period. If they don't want you around then I would expect you to be told to leave immediately (as long as you don't then complain that they didn't keep you around for your notice period if it suits you).

Everything I've read on here suggests notice periods are meaningless in the case of a Ltd company, providing services, contract... at least it is when the shoe is on the other foot. Just trying to work out what to expect.

I'm not sure that's entirely accurate. In some situations, you will find that the contract will say that you only get paid for the days / hours that you work - so if the client terminates the contract then you may not get paid for time that you didn't work. That's not the same as saying that all notice periods are meaningless - particularly in the case of the client holding the contractor to the agreement they made.

If you've been in this situation before what did you do and how did it go?

I gave notice once - client asked me to stay but they were in BAU on a short-term contract by that stage and I wanted to be doing another project instead of watching the support situation. I worked my week's notice and went to the next client with everyone happy.

Also, who do I officially terminate with?... my agency, or the company I'm providing services to?

You can only terminate the contract that you have. It is considered polite and good manners to inform the client as well, but you don't have a contract with them so there is nothing that you can terminate with them.