Reply to: Working at risk

[northernladuk]

Just thought I'd provide an update to close off the thread. Not going in on Monday until everything is sorted out. Client understands, I'm happy. I can get to do some work on the house now :-) Thanks again for the anecdotes and input.

Happy days, well ish. Bit of a bum missing a days billing but it's not like we are on the breadline or anything. Client is happy and on board though which is always a good result.

Thanks for updating is on the outcome. We rarely find out what happened.

[Gomez]

Just thought I'd provide an update to close off the thread. Not going in on Monday until everything is sorted out. Client understands, I'm happy. I can get to do some work on the house now :-) Thanks again for the anecdotes and input.

[MrMarkyMark]

To be fair I've been in a fairly similar situation. Weekly renewals for a month and a bit that never quite landed on time on the Friday so had to give the laptop back and wait in the car park before I got the call to come in on a Monday nearly every week. Nothing else on the radar so played their game. Got a gig and just didn't turn up one Monday. Worked in my favour as I had a gig with virtually no notice. Messy but not the end of the world.

Someone gave me a month renewal once, on the last day, it didn't happen again .

However, I did cue an alternative up first.

[northernladuk]

Yet every time you bent over and agreed, I would have gone the second time they tried this.

To be fair I've been in a fairly similar situation. Weekly renewals for a month and a bit that never quite landed on time on the Friday so had to give the laptop back and wait in the car park before I got the call to come in on a Monday nearly every week. Nothing else on the radar so played their game. Got a gig and just didn't turn up one Monday. Worked in my favour as I had a gig with virtually no notice. Messy but not the end of the world.

[SlipTheJab]

IMHO don't do it. Do it once and they'll do it every time.

I had a client who left it until the last minute every time. I'd pack my stuff and put it in the car. Then by about 8pm I'd get a call saying it was sorted.

In the end, I asked manager to just email confirmation it was all agreed. He got a bit funny asking why I wouldnt take his word. Why he wouldnt just write a quick email I'll never know.

When I left I heard from one of the permies that the previous contractor had worked for two weeks at the end without contract in place with just this guys word. In the end, it got canned at a higher level and the guy had to leave without payment. Manager promised to try and sort out two weeks money but he never got it.

Yet every time you bent over and agreed, I would have gone the second time they tried this.

[psychocandy]

IMHO don't do it. Do it once and they'll do it every time.

I had a client who left it until the last minute every time. I'd pack my stuff and put it in the car. Then by about 8pm I'd get a call saying it was sorted.

In the end, I asked manager to just email confirmation it was all agreed. He got a bit funny asking why I wouldnt take his word. Why he wouldnt just write a quick email I'll never know.

When I left I heard from one of the permies that the previous contractor had worked for two weeks at the end without contract in place with just this guys word. In the end, it got canned at a higher level and the guy had to leave without payment. Manager promised to try and sort out two weeks money but he never got it.

[jamesbrown]

It is?

A MSA with a schedule for specific T&M or FFP tasks? Yes, very common in my area. YMMV.

[northernladuk]

I agree. This is quite a common scenario, and your analysis is almost certainly correct in that context, i.e. the only risk is not getting paid without a schedule/PO for the additional T&M.

It is?

[jamesbrown]

This is good. I am operating under a contract for services with a master services agreement that goes to summer this year. The contract for services does not specify an end date nor does it specify a value. The contract includes a schedule which has to exist in order to create a contractual obligation for the supplier to pay me if I do the work. The schedule has a max number of days which are used up today. It sounds like the contractual side of things will be OK and the risk is just as you say; potentially not getting paid for work carried out. I'm waiting for some clarity from the G-Cloud supplier and hope to hear more today.

Thanks for your help (and the others that replied)

I agree. This is quite a common scenario, and your analysis is almost certainly correct in that context, i.e. the only risk is not getting paid without a schedule/PO for the additional T&M.

[Gomez]

Read the contract in detail - hopefully you find that you are operating under a contract for services or a master services agreement that covers a longer period than the purchase order but requires a purchase order to enable invoicing coverage. In which case you could happily stay on site and be under contract. The risk is you may not be able to get the PO agreed and even if you do, they may not be able to raise it with retrospective dates. In which case any activity prior to the date of signature may not be recovered via invoicing.
Its a risk, consider the options. Could you advise the client that you will remain working but off-site till the PO is in place?

PS: If you have a contract with a specified end date AND for a specified value, the the contract expires upon reaching the contractual end date OR the contractual value being reached.

This is good. I am operating under a contract for services with a master services agreement that goes to summer this year. The contract for services does not specify an end date nor does it specify a value. The contract includes a schedule which has to exist in order to create a contractual obligation for the supplier to pay me if I do the work. The schedule has a max number of days which are used up today. It sounds like the contractual side of things will be OK and the risk is just as you say; potentially not getting paid for work carried out. I'm waiting for some clarity from the G-Cloud supplier and hope to hear more today.

Thanks for your help (and the others that replied)

[Works For Beer]

Read the contract in detail - hopefully you find that you are operating under a contract for services or a master services agreement that covers a longer period than the purchase order but requires a purchase order to enable invoicing coverage. In which case you could happily stay on site and be under contract. The risk is you may not be able to get the PO agreed and even if you do, they may not be able to raise it with retrospective dates. In which case any activity prior to the date of signature may not be recovered via invoicing.
Its a risk, consider the options. Could you advise the client that you will remain working but off-site till the PO is in place?

PS: If you have a contract with a specified end date AND for a specified value, the the contract expires upon reaching the contractual end date OR the contractual value being reached.

[Gomez]

What do your insurance T&Cs say about being on site with no contract?

I firstly need to understand whether I still have a contract. I am subcontracting to a supplier on G-Cloud and whilst that supplier will continue to have a contract with the client next week, it is not so clear whether my contract with the supplier ceases to exists once the set amount of days in the original purchase order is consumed. It might be that my contract still exists but there is no purchase order for any days work. I've asked the G-Cloud supplier for clarity.

[SueEllen]

Protect yourself, while (being seen to be) doing everything in your power to get it sorted. You can't be working without a contract, but you can explain this to whoever is going to be most affected by it. Tell them you don't believe you're covered by your business insurance if you're out of contract (It's probably not true, but enough people believe it) if you want an excuse.

I've been there a number of things and I just treat is a day or two off - as soon as the PO is there, I get on the road to make sure I'm ready to go in the morning.

^^^ This

I know when I've queried things with my insurance the person at the other end of the phone cannot clarify anything it has to go to someone in the back office to sort out, and it's only given to them if it's urgent.

[SueEllen]

It's not just your insurance that might not cover you - your client's insurance may also be invalidated by having out-of-contract personnel on site. I've worked a couple of places where that was the case.

PS departments often self insure and are allowed to by law as ultimately the taxpayer, us, pays.

I only know because I was looking at something my council was responsible for, and also when I had one PS client I was finding out what happened if you got run over in the car park.

Edited to say: The latter was because I was interested to see what the difference would be compared to a previous private sector client where it actually happened.

[ladymuck]

It's not just your insurance that might not cover you - your client's insurance may also be invalidated by having out-of-contract personnel on site. I've worked a couple of places where that was the case.