Reply to: New to contracting - Whats a reasonable number of contracted hours?

[malvolio]

So we're back to my original interpretation of what they were trying to say. Heigh ho...

[LondonManc]

I read the word estimated, but I interpreted it as 'expected'. i.e. I felt there was risk that the client would then be within their rights to expect that many hours per day and then say 'well we did tell you this is how many hours we estimated you'd need to do in the contract' ... and then potentially not sign time sheets etc until you did this estimated number of hours.

This is what i have now done, and after some initial pushback they have said they will update to say PWD is expected 8 hours, but up to a *max* of 10 if required ...

My expectation is that I'll need to do 9,10 hour days fairly often, and even 11 + hour days sometimes ... and am OK with this from time to time, but was just very uncomfortable with the contract having something that implied (to me) that they may not sign time sheets if i hadn't been in the office for 10 hours.

Well done and thanks for letting us know. Life's a negotiation when you're a contractor.

[mrtuk]

You and other posters cannot read the word "estimated".
"Estimated" is a rough calculation. In other words the OP may work more hours thn this or less.

I read the word estimated, but I interpreted it as 'expected'. i.e. I felt there was risk that the client would then be within their rights to expect that many hours per day and then say 'well we did tell you this is how many hours we estimated you'd need to do in the contract' ... and then potentially not sign time sheets etc until you did this estimated number of hours.

Personally I would suggest that the OP gets the PWD definition changed and also alter one of the clauses so it makes it clear the OP will do work as needed to be done within reason.

This is what i have now done, and after some initial pushback they have said they will update to say PWD is expected 8 hours, but up to a *max* of 10 if required ...

My expectation is that I'll need to do 9,10 hour days fairly often, and even 11 + hour days sometimes ... and am OK with this from time to time, but was just very uncomfortable with the contract having something that implied (to me) that they may not sign time sheets if i hadn't been in the office for 10 hours.

[eek]

No need to be rude.

You and other posters cannot read the word "estimated".

"Estimated" is a rough calculation. In other words the OP may work more hours than this or less.

The reason the numbers are in there is because the agency and client doesn't want you going home when there is a major system failure because you have done your hours.

Personally I would suggest that the OP gets the PWD definition changed and also alter one of the clauses so it makes it clear the OP will do work as needed to be done within reason.

Estimated hours beyond 35 a week means that they really need more than 1 person to do the work...

[SueEllen]

Donald Trump has been in the business world for decades - therefore, he is a great businessman and of wise notoriety.

Pretty sure the viewers of this thread will see your comment for what it was: a complete nonsense.

No need to be rude.

You and other posters cannot read the word "estimated".

"Estimated" is a rough calculation. In other words the OP may work more hours than this or less.

The reason the numbers are in there is because the agency and client doesn't want you going home when there is a major system failure because you have done your hours.

Personally I would suggest that the OP gets the PWD definition changed and also alter one of the clauses so it makes it clear the OP will do work as needed to be done within reason.

[dundeedude]

I've only been doing this for 21 years. I'll keep practising.

But I stand by my interpretation. I didn't say it was right, only that it is what the agency (or perhaps some fool middle manager at the client) is trying to say and suggesting a non-suicidal option for the OP to clarify things. But hey, I don't really care if you all disagree.

Donald Trump has been in the business world for decades - therefore, he is a great businessman and of wise notoriety.

Pretty sure the viewers of this thread will see your comment for what it was: a complete nonsense.

[malvolio]

...blah...

Edit: Massive relief to see the long term contractors also recognise these sort of terms are a car crash.

I've only been doing this for 21 years. I'll keep practising.

But I stand by my interpretation. I didn't say it was right, only that it is what the agency (or perhaps some fool middle manager at the client) is trying to say and suggesting a non-suicidal option for the OP to clarify things. But hey, I don't really care if you all disagree.

[SueEllen]

I am not planning to at this point ...

... this is the approach I am planning to take - I believe that this is reasonable for the rate agreed ... if however they turn around and say this is what the client require and it's not negotiable, then I will have a difficult decision as not working currently, and this looked like an ideal role.

Absolutely which is why these clauses concerned me.

You need to keep looking for roles and accepting interviews until the contract is agreed and you are on-site.

While you are on-site until you know the project isn't going to get canned keep talking/replying to agents.

[mrtuk]

Don't sign this contract.

I am not planning to at this point ...

Get 'professional working day' without stipulated hours. If the agency want hours then it's 40, without the word 'average' being used.

... this is the approach I am planning to take - I believe that this is reasonable for the rate agreed ... if however they turn around and say this is what the client require and it's not negotiable, then I will have a difficult decision as not working currently, and this looked like an ideal role.

What's at home and within your social circle is what matters.

Absolutely which is why these clauses concerned me.

[dundeedude]

Please go back and read what I said properly. The contract wording is trying, in a ham-fisted way, to define the upper limit of the PWD, not its minimum.

Nonsense. It quite clearly states the expectation in hours the of service client expects. As it's not explicitly mentioned I see no ability to charge for the hours extra. FS are trying to impose terms that are negative for the contractor.

Don't sign this contract. By accepting crapper rates and signing your life away you bring the contracting and consulting industry down.

It also would not surprise me if the client expects plenty more hours on top of this. More contractors should calculate their hourly worth and add travel time into this. The number of amateur bums-on-seats for 60+ hours a week at a desk is bringing our service industry down.

Get 'professional working day' without stipulated hours. If the agency want hours then it's 40, without the word 'average' being used.

I'd ditch this trash of a gig even if it was £600/day, which it likely won't be, given the current FS climate. If it's £500/day or less I'd advise you to get with the script and look for other jobs.

I'm getting sick of folk who sell out their soul for an extra £50/day. It's a bit like a permie doing on-call once a month for an extra £50/week: the amount of time extra spent working doesn't justify the costs.

What's at home and within your social circle is what matters. If they want a contract with 50,60,70+ hours (regularly) then they'll pay £750/800/day. I've done that before but safe in the knowledge of a very high day rate.

The market may be depressed but it's important contractors remain resilient to this nonsense.

Edit: Massive relief to see the long term contractors also recognise these sort of terms are a car crash.

[SussexSeagull]

50 hours a week minimum would need to be some serious money for me to do it.

[LondonManc]

Well as its Malvolio I'll waste a few seconds going through the contract line by line



You are agreeing to work 50 hours a week



10 hours unless the client requests less (and somehow I doubt they will)



At least hours beyond 50 appear to be billable separately although that's not 100% clear.

Now which part of this contract does not seem to expect you to work 50 hours a week am I missing that makes this contract acceptable (it reads like something an indian outsource gives their onshored staff on pain of being fired without a flight home.)

This, this and thrice this. Great post. Unless the rate is at least 50% more than your standard day rate, it sounds like a complete hospital pass.

[northernladuk]

Does it really matter? If the ClientCo is expecting you to be 50h/week onsite and you signed a contract that explicitly mentions it, quoting regulations and crap like that to lower your working hours will only get the boot and a sour relation with the Clientco/Agency

Im just responding to Stevie's post pointing out a possible correction.

[sal]

I didn't think the working time directive applied to contractors.

The Working Time Regulations 1998

Contractors win exemption from EU workers' directive :: Contractor UK

Does it really matter? If the ClientCo is expecting you to be 50h/week onsite and you signed a contract that explicitly mentions it, quoting regulations and crap like that to lower your working hours will only get the boot and a sour relation with the Clientco/Agency

[eek]

I didn't think the working time directive applied to contractors.

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/1...lation/20/made

Contractors win exemption from EU workers' directive :: Contractor UK

It can do if the director's contract with their PSC doesn't exclude it.