Reply to: How many years as a Permie before you took the leap into contracting?

[JoJoGabor]

I don't believe this is true. You want to pay someone 500 a day to learn? I don't think so. I get where you are coming from and in certain situations I'd wholly agree but you can't apply it across the board. Some roles have specific requirements and need that experience and that's what you are paying for. I don't think a blanket statement like that works.

I didn't say to apply it across the board, but pick the right person. I've done contracts at 500/day where I've come in, learning a new technology and still delivered more than the so-called experts I've either taken over from or working with.

I guess my point is, the right person is more important than x years of experience. Especially if that is x years experience of being a bit pants.

To answer the original question, I went contracting after 3 years of permie employment. It was a step down as far as I was concerned, but quickly climbed the ladder in terms of skills and quickly overtook where I was as a permie. It meant a bit of blagging experience in the early days, and now just a little blagging

[MrMarkyMark]

I don't believe this is true. You want to pay someone 500 a day to learn? I don't think so. I get where you are coming from and in certain situations I'd wholly agree but you can't apply it across the board. Some roles have specific requirements and need that experience and that's what you are paying for. I don't think a blanket statement like that works.

Surely, if you are a true specialist that keeps up to date, with many years of experience this wouldn't hold true.

I know in my field that the guys who have been doing it the longest, write on technical forums regularly etc. are far more use than some guys who have just a few years experience.
They are also known, quite often personally, by the main recruitment guys that cover my area.

You tend more junior people have much less experience on the soft skills side, also.

[northernladuk]

If I was hiring I would much rather hire a youngster with a good attitude and ability to learn than many so called professionals with years of experience.

I don't believe this is true. You want to pay someone 500 a day to learn? I don't think so. I get where you are coming from and in certain situations I'd wholly agree but you can't apply it across the board. Some roles have specific requirements and need that experience and that's what you are paying for. I don't think a blanket statement like that works.

[JoJoGabor]

If I was hiring I would much rather hire a youngster with a good attitude and ability to learn than many so called professionals with years of experience. Looking back on my career, I was probably at my peak when I was about 28. 7 years on the job experience but still young enough to have a better working brain to deliver great technical solutions quickly. I'm 39 now and yes I have learnt a bit more with experience, learned to handle people better, learnt some better standards and experience, but am I as efficient and "good" at my job? probably not. Yet I get paid twice as much as I did then. I do find as I get older I find it harder to learn new things and even follow other peoples solutions.

People just feel more comfortable with an experienced person. Its wrong (in my opinion) but its human nature. Maybe its time I went into something less taxing, like management.

[bobspud]

I've been contracting for 5 years and every other contractor I've met has either never heard of IR35 or they think they will never get caught for being inside it. I've worked with guys who have been contracting at the same company for 10+ years. They all behave exactly like permanent staff and think I am weird for bringing up IR35 issues.

This is why being a good contractor is nothing to to with length of service as a permanent employee and everything to do with understanding what a _GOOD_ contractor is supposed to do.

I have heard all sorts of crap over the years about being outside IR35 while doing the same job as the permanent guy. Which is why from day one I have fiercely defended my right to come and go as I please and work were I want to. I base my work on delivery not hours spent sat on a chair. But yes the majority of the guys sat in most places are in for a shock. Especially if HMRC manage to beat the BBC case.

[Rabotnik]

The industry seems to only be for people who are happy to run the risk of IR35 and keep clients sweet by behaving like permanent employees and not rocking the boat then switching client every few years.

I've been contracting for 5 years and every other contractor I've met has either never heard of IR35 or they think they will never get caught for being inside it. I've worked with guys who have been contracting at the same company for 10+ years. They all behave exactly like permanent staff and think I am weird for bringing up IR35 issues.

[SussexSeagull]

9 years permanent and 8 years contracting.

The game has changed though. When I was still permanent and working with contractors and went on to start contracting contractors were brought in expertise. You were supposed to be one of the best in the room.

Then it went to whole projects and, worryingly, BAU being entirely staffed by contractors. Never worked in the city but I hear anecdotally it is prevalent there.

I saw an advert for Graduate Contract Testers in Croydon for less than £100 a day. That isn't contracting, that is keeping people off the books. How someone in their first role can not be in IR35 is beyond me.

The industry seems to only be for people who are happy to run the risk of IR35 and keep clients sweet by behaving like permanent employees and not rocking the boat then switching client every few years.

Not really what I signed up for.

[bobspud]

To the OP:

Its not the number of years being a permie that decides how successful you will be as a contractor. Having good tech skills or whatever you think you do does not get you the cash.

I have seen lots of people that have 10 years + as a permie and are still rocking their 5th contract like their last permie job and still sucking as a contractor.

Being a contractor involves firstly being insular and totally dependent on your own resources. Then the next big skill is being impervious to change so that you can leave a contract on friday and start the next one on the Monday without the need to bed in. You are there as the safe pair of hands that knows their field and will be expected to understand and neutralise the politics and deliver.

[pr1]

I think you mean inversely proprtional

Just because there's two ways of saying something it doesn't mean one is wrong :/

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...tiosrev6.shtml
(To quote your own source)

[itjobs]

I worked 4 years as a permie (in the UK) when I realised that contractors are earning a minimum of £275 (about 10-12 years ago) per day. I am/was an immigrant in this country, so waited for the right time to quit but yet be able to operate on my own with necessary legal requirements.

Quit the job, started working as a contractor, with family in Norfolk, client in Bristol, had to go through weekly journey of about 3-4 hours every week one way (you have to go through liverpool station london...i think). Then moved to Midlands after a year.

Within few months, I lost the job (imagine seeing the role in job sites from the client with exact specs you are doing), couldn't do anything but to sell my house in Norfolk, had about £25K as profit.

Because I was focusing only on one tool, my opportunities became limited and ultimately I had to leave UK as I was not eligible for any support (even if there were, its hard to declare yourself as a failure). Before I went, I acquired British Citizenship in a hurry (until then I had no intention of doing it, but to increase the chances of job I had to do it) and went back to my so called home country.

Kids had a horrible time, as they spoke only english. They went through a tough time of learning local language. I decided that I had to change my line of work. Called up few known local friends, but they said I had to be an experienced Account Manager or Super manager and can't apply for normal roles due to my age (I was focusing on technical side and there was no concept of contractor or SME).

After several tries (and accumulating debts), went to a job fair got a job (salaried @£250 per month..duly declared to HMRC who said I don't have declare or file annual returns due to low income). When I decided to come back to UK, the only friend agreed to provide me accommodation (just for me) at a rate that he said would be disclosed at a later stage when I got a job (he charged me, but in my culture we don't consider money aspects when dealing with friends and relatives...its a big no no).

For 3 months, I applied and got nothing. I was on the verge of doing anything, finally a client in CPH offered me one.

Now I am back in UK dictating my rates.

Here are the lessons learned

1. Have the right skills. Watch the market and improve it, keep updating it.
2. Expect anything at any time. Anything can happen at anytime.
3. Grow your war chest all the time.
4. Have few friends to help you at the right time.
5. Set backs cannot stop you.

Hope this helps. The point here is, can you survive the changes with the right mind set (and hopefully an understanding family). Bring it on!

[MrMarkyMark]

I think you mean inversely proprtional

Just as well he had a more experienced person to catch that, I'm sure he will grateful to you for it

[WTFH]

6 perm, almost 3x that contracting.

[No2politics]

I think you mean inversely proprtional

http://www.bbc.co.uk/schools/gcsebit...onhirev2.shtml

[No2politics]

also, experience is indirectly proportional to sense of humour and grasp of sarcasm, as shown above

I think you mean inversely proprtional

[pr1]

also, experience is indirectly proportional to sense of humour and grasp of sarcasm, as shown above