Reply to: Contract expired, being renewed but I have a new contract - notice clause

[northernladuk]

That's right, I'm not leaving a job with nothing to go to. Employment is defined as "the state of having paid work" - are we really going to be pedantic? I work to be paid money - even as a contractor.
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Bearing in mind HMRC are trying to prove employment which would mean you losing a good chunk of your money sorted we are being that pedantic. You've got to do everything you can to prove you are not in the employment of your client sonic say it's pretty key to get the terminology right. More often than not people use the term employment incorrectly also get a number of other key points wrong as well. So we always point it out.

[SueEllen]

Why do I feel I'm getting an inquisition here...? We strayed a bit OT.

1. We are trying to ensure you get the contract with your direct client. Hence trying to work out if you can get a shorter notice period.

2. This also involves arguing amongst ourselves but the crux of it is you shouldn't work without a signed contract as you can get badly burnt. It's happened to posters before and you really don't want to have to go all the way to the doorstep of a court room before a client agrees to pay up.

[Mincepie]

Hi OP,

Some people always turn it into the Spanish inquisition or you're not doing something correctly type condescension However there are some great bits of advice i have taken from these boards but you must put up with pedants..

Always have something to go to if you're going to bail early i say. I wouldn't work without a signed contract as i would be worried about getting paid. I haven't left a contract early before and would only be tempted if they could offer something better than the current gig offers. I would be concerned about burning bridges etc as well.

I have been direct once and the contract they provided me took forever and they payment terms were poor. It was only my second contract and i didn't know what i was doing really back then. If i went direct again I would be sourcing my own contract and be firmer about things like payment terms etc.

In regards to your situation as you're currently on site without a signed contract you're in the realm of an implied contract so i believe this means your 1 month notice stands. If you want to go to the other gig give them a start date and see what they say. If they say yes hand in notice and hope the new contract doesn't vanish in the next 4 weeks.

[WTFH]

At the minute I haven't said anything to my current client but will be working to the 1 month notice as that was what was in my old contract and what would be in the new contract - it wasn't negotiable.

OK, well you need to tell the existing client for the 1 month notice period to come into effect

I've always had contracts drawn up by the agent or, with this job, the client.

When you work through an agent that is normal. They have a standard contract you sign up to. That contract is influenced/based on the contract they draw up with the client.
When you work direct with a client, you draw up the contract. You are the supplier so you dictate the terms under which you are prepared to supply the services to the client, including payment terms, value of contract, handling of expenses, equipment provided by the client, start and end dates.




It's not meant to be an inquisition, it's meant to be a learning experience where, hopefully, lessons are learned for the future.

[DaveJFT]

So, what have you told the current client at the minute?
Have you mentioned that you've been offered a new role (and is it an offer or have you accepted already)?
How many draft contracts have YOU put to YOUR current client? It's you that should be putting the contract to them, not the other way around.

At the minute I haven't said anything to my current client but will be working to the 1 month notice as that was what was in my old contract and what would be in the new contract - it wasn't negotiable.

The new client was needing to confirm my notice period so that a start date for the new contract can be agreed. I've always had contracts drawn up by the agent or, with this job, the client.

Also slightly confused, you say that you get clients who ask you to come back direct and then you also say that this is the first time you have ever gone direct.

Just because I've had clients call it doesn't mean I've ever accepted. Clients have called to enquire whether I'd be interested and available to go back but the timing or terms have never been the right so, to date, I've always graciously declined.

Therein lies the detail - you aren't leaving a job with nothing to go to, and this has nothing to do with employment.

That's right, I'm not leaving a job with nothing to go to. Employment is defined as "the state of having paid work" - are we really going to be pedantic? I work to be paid money - even as a contractor.

It has been pretty uncomfortable when a client has terminated a contract without prior warning (yes, they've done it to me too) and with just a week's notice and I've not managed to find something for several weeks, and it's not something I intend to bring on myself.

Sounds like you've been incredibly lucky if you've managed to keep all your clients dangling until you complete the notice period and walk, so good luck to you though.

Not at all and no one's been left dangling, every prospective client or agent I've ever spoken to has asked what notice period I have with my incumbent client. Obviously, if the job would require me to start in a week and I'm on a month's notice talks go no further viz my point to WTFH above about not yet being in a position to accept an offer to return to a previous client.

Why do I feel I'm getting an inquisition here...? We strayed a bit OT.

Anyhow, thanks for your help folks.

[missinggreenfields]

I know there's a big difference - that's my point. One leaves you vulnerable - you've got to find your next contract and then work your notice; while you're looking the client has found someone to replace you and gives you your notice before you're ready forcing you to pick the first contract that comes along on unfavourable terms or risk a break in turnover - and the other is standard practice with any form of employment. As my grandfather told my father, my father told me and as I tell my son - never leave a job until you've got something else to go to. So, it's what I've always done and clients have never had a problem; they can't have done or I wouldn't get phone calls from the clients themselves asking me back direct.

Therein lies the detail - you aren't leaving a job with nothing to go to, and this has nothing to do with employment.

Sounds like you've been incredibly lucky if you've managed to keep all your clients dangling until you complete the notice period and walk, so good luck to you though.

[WTFH]

So, what have you told the current client at the minute?
Have you mentioned that you've been offered a new role (and is it an offer or have you accepted already)?
How many draft contracts have YOU put to YOUR current client? It's you that should be putting the contract to them, not the other way around.


Also slightly confused, you say that you get clients who ask you to come back direct and then you also say that this is the first time you have ever gone direct.

[mudskipper]

I'm direct and negotiation hasn't been going too well. Every time I get a draft to review there seems to be something else they're trying to impose (rate reductions, hour and working time restrictions, IR35 vulnerable clauses, contradictory clauses ...even unnecessary and silly clauses that would immediately put me in breach of the contract as soon as I signed it!), hence why I started looking. This is my first time going direct and the first time a client has wanted to rewrite the contract from scratch ...which they obviously didn't think about until too late or we'd have been having these discussions weeks before my renewal was up.

OK - so the verbal agreement was that you would continue on the same terms. When the paperwork came through, the terms were different. I would think you have a good case for saying "No thank you. Cheerio." Being professional you could offer to continue for another week to allow for a handover.

[DaveJFT]

There's a big difference between telling before looking and telling after getting a new contract, signing the papers and just waiting to agree the start date.

So how were your discussions going with them about the changes to the terms?
Are you direct with the client or through an agent?

I know there's a big difference - that's my point. One leaves you vulnerable - you've got to find your next contract and then work your notice; while you're looking the client has found someone to replace you and gives you your notice before you're ready forcing you to pick the first contract that comes along on unfavourable terms or risk a break in turnover - and the other is standard practice with any form of employment. As my grandfather told my father, my father told me and as I tell my son - never leave a job until you've got something else to go to. So, it's what I've always done and clients have never had a problem; they can't have done or I wouldn't get phone calls from the clients themselves asking me back direct.

I'm direct and negotiation hasn't been going too well. Every time I get a draft to review there seems to be something else they're trying to impose (rate reductions, hour and working time restrictions, IR35 vulnerable clauses, contradictory clauses ...even unnecessary and silly clauses that would immediately put me in breach of the contract as soon as I signed it!), hence why I started looking. This is my first time going direct and the first time a client has wanted to rewrite the contract from scratch ...which they obviously didn't think about until too late or we'd have been having these discussions weeks before my renewal was up.

[WTFH]

They do know that there are changes to the terms that I'm very unhappy about, but seriously? Does anybody tell their incumbent client before going out looking for another contract - I've been doing this for 10 years and never heard of anyone telling their current client they are going to look for another contract. It's a surefire way to earn a termination and it could be weeks before the right contract lands. I've never had a client take umbridge with me for handing in my notice because I'm taking a new contract - that's what we as contractors do and that's what the notice period is for ...so that they have time to replace you and for you to do a handover and so that you have some time to find your next contract before the pennies stop rolling in.

There's a big difference between telling before looking and telling after getting a new contract, signing the papers and just waiting to agree the start date.

So how were your discussions going with them about the changes to the terms?
Are you direct with the client or through an agent?

[SueEllen]

Don't be silly. You know exactly what I mean and why he should have a proper one. Buggering about with implied contracts never ends well and can't be good for IR35. If someone is daft enough to not get their contract signed properly it's highly unlikely they are smart enough to be understand implied contracts.

I'm not being silly I'm being factual.

You are being silly by stating a email and/or verbal agreement isn't a contract in English and Welsh law.

[DaveJFT]

Talk to the current client.


According to your first post you were in negotiations about a new contract. If you are on a client site and they are still paying you and they are discussing a new contract, then no matter how you handle it you are burning the bridges by taking a contract with a different client without first discussing it with the current one.

They do know that there are changes to the terms that I'm very unhappy about, but seriously? Does anybody tell their incumbent client before going out looking for another contract - I've been doing this for 10 years and never heard of anyone telling their current client they are going to look for another contract. It's a surefire way to earn a termination and it could be weeks before the right contract lands. I've never had a client take umbridge with me for handing in my notice because I'm taking a new contract - that's what we as contractors do and that's what the notice period is for ...so that they have time to replace you and for you to do a handover and so that you have some time to find your next contract before the pennies stop rolling in.

[Support Monkey]

Don't work without a contract again. It's just ridiculous and there is no need. People have said on here it invalidates your insurance or something as well. Just before your contract ends tell them you will be leaving site and will be back when you have a contract. It will focus the client because they need work doing and the agent as it's their commission that's stopping as well.

That is exactly what I was told on my current contract, the client had forgot to sort the paperwork out with the agency for my extension and I was in my final week, there was no way they could get it signed off before the Monday so I was told there was no way I could be onsite without a contract.

Basically any insurance would be invalid if anything happened to me or the clients systems\data with no contract they were not covered from their side and they wouldn't be able to claim from me\agency if I caused any damage, so I had a lovely week pottering around the house and garden whilst they got their finger out and signed off the extension

[northernladuk]

He has got a contract it's just not written down properly. A verbal or even email agreement is a contract in law.

The reason to have a proper contract is to avoid situations like this where you don't know how much notice to give.

Don't be silly. You know exactly what I mean and why he should have a proper one. Buggering about with implied contracts never ends well and can't be good for IR35. If someone is daft enough to not get their contract signed properly it's highly unlikely they are smart enough to be understand implied contracts.

[WTFH]

Talk to the current client.


According to your first post you were in negotiations about a new contract. If you are on a client site and they are still paying you and they are discussing a new contract, then no matter how you handle it you are burning the bridges by taking a contract with a different client without first discussing it with the current one.