Reply to: State of the Market

[SchumiStars]

This is my favourite part. Such an advantage to being in the office and, my god, what a productivity gain. Looking forward to Schumi's memoirs to see what other personal and professional highlights will be in there.

Not everything has to yeild a financial benefit. I understand this seems to be a big driver for people on here.

At the time I was running marathons, trying to get faster. Finding inspirational people to learn and build from is not as easy as it sounds.

People in offices have called me inspirational and have gravitated towards my social skills and arranging evenings out for the team.

But yeah, why don't you tell us about the cost benefit of the last spreadsheet you wrote for accounts?

The point being, not all benefits are financial. What about the health, motivational and inspirational drivers?

I am not fat nor lazy.

See attached screenshots. I used to run from Charing Cross to Canary Wharf and back. Every, single, day.

As I have previously said, I would love that to return to an office.

[herman_g]

I have met some brilliant people just at the kitchen or coffee machine. I once met a silver Olympic medalist whilst getting a coffee in the office. Guy was next level brilliant. I got back to my desk and googled him and he was everywhere on the internet, had his own Wikipedia page etc.

This is my favourite part. Such an advantage to being in the office and, my god, what a productivity gain. Looking forward to Schumi's memoirs to see what other personal and professional highlights will be in there.

[Dorkeaux]

I disagree. WFH is good for some people. But I like being in an office and working. Some days when there was little to do, I could go for a longer run, attempt to chat up the PAs and engage with various other people.

I have met some brilliant people just at the kitchen or coffee machine. I once met a silver Olympic medalist whilst getting a coffee in the office. Guy was next level brilliant. I got back to my desk and googled him and he was everywhere on the internet, had his own Wikipedia page etc.

How can you meet people WFH?

Again, other skills which are important for life such as engaging with people. How is anyone supposed to learn how to chat anyone up these days?

I live in London, working in a London office in Mayfair, Marlebourne, Faringdon, is just awesome. Can go for a run on the river or in the parks.

Why would you want to be at home when the vista is so much better in an office? I mean, ok, it's more efficient, saves a great deal of time and cost commuting but that is just making everyone lazy and fat.

Why would you want to be lazy, fat and just collecting cash? Seems like you would be happy doing as little as possible whilst earning loads. Bizarre.

With respect Schumster, the CilentCos don't really care if you disagree, or if you have a pleasant place to run.
It's them driving the change in working practices for the most part.

I think it's all to the good.
I have some very longstanding and productive relationships with colleagues I've rarely even seen even on camera.

[herman_g]

I disagree. WFH is good for some people. But I like being in an office and working. Some days when there was little to do, I could go for a longer run, attempt to chat up the PAs and engage with various other people.

I have met some brilliant people just at the kitchen or coffee machine. I once met a silver Olympic medalist whilst getting a coffee in the office. Guy was next level brilliant. I got back to my desk and googled him and he was everywhere on the internet, had his own Wikipedia page etc.

How can you meet people WFH?

Again, other skills which are important for life such as engaging with people. How is anyone supposed to learn how to chat anyone up these days?

I live in London, working in a London office in Mayfair, Marlebourne, Faringdon, is just awesome. Can go for a run on the river or in the parks.

Why would you want to be at home when the vista is so much better in an office? I mean, ok, it's more efficient, saves a great deal of time and cost commuting but that is just making everyone lazy and fat.

Why would you want to be lazy, fat and just collecting cash? Seems like you would be happy doing as little as possible whilst earning loads. Bizarre.

Well seems you've got a whole lot of time for runningnow. And it's probably been so long since you worked in the office or did WFH that you wouldn't remember either one. Probably time to re-train as a gym teacher.

[Ketto]

Everyone is different. I have periods where i go in all the time, others where i don’t go in for weeks. There are good and bad points to both. I can’t imagine what raising young kids needing school and nursery runs must have been like pre-covid for two people both commuting into the city.

I was once instructed by my other half to go in, have a lavish lunch and then go for a few post work craft beers. This was after 11 weeks straight home working where i’m told i had started to go ever so slightly barmy. I had no idea!

[eek]

How can you live in London yet not be able to spell Marylebone and Farringdon.

equally Marylebone is a small station everyone else refers to that area as “West End” (which is what current clientco calls it) / Baker Street

[SchumiStars]

When they first started talking about going back to the office once a week, the other option was just to have a night out once every two weeks. It was explained the purpose was not to get people into the office but, rather, to gain something from people spending time together. It was decided Tuesdays in the office was fine but the manager stressed he want people to sit on teams all day. He explained the bank was very happy with the productivity increase since WFH began.

The first time I went into the office, I found they had some strange standard for connecting monitors and I was unable to use anything but my small laptop monitor. It was noisy and little got done. At home, I have the big screen and two 32 inch monitors and it's quiet. I am able to put in a really great day's work and still manage do some trading. When I my manager asked me how the day went late in the afternoon, I told him I got nothing done. His response was "that's ok - it's not why you're here.

When I have teams meetings with one of the guys who likes to go Tuesdays because his son's school is close to the office, nothing gets accomplished. It's noisy with other guys around him and he is almost whispering.

It's clear the working world has moved beyond working in the office and it's only a good thing.

Companies are happy and so are the staff - us independant contracters are happy as well (put that in for my HMRC loving Oliverson since I clearly can't be part of a scrum team with other members and I can't have a boss or colleagues).

I disagree. WFH is good for some people. But I like being in an office and working. Some days when there was little to do, I could go for a longer run, attempt to chat up the PAs and engage with various other people.

I have met some brilliant people just at the kitchen or coffee machine. I once met a silver Olympic medalist whilst getting a coffee in the office. Guy was next level brilliant. I got back to my desk and googled him and he was everywhere on the internet, had his own Wikipedia page etc.

How can you meet people WFH?

Again, other skills which are important for life such as engaging with people. How is anyone supposed to learn how to chat anyone up these days?

I live in London, working in a London office in Mayfair, Marlebourne, Faringdon, is just awesome. Can go for a run on the river or in the parks.

Why would you want to be at home when the vista is so much better in an office? I mean, ok, it's more efficient, saves a great deal of time and cost commuting but that is just making everyone lazy and fat.

Why would you want to be lazy, fat and just collecting cash? Seems like you would be happy doing as little as possible whilst earning loads. Bizarre.

[herman_g]

I find the contract work I've taken since well before COVID follows the pattern Herman describes.

My clients say two days a week during the contract negotiations, but the actually don't want me in the office once the contract starts.

The nature of the work has adapted. Even if you do go into the central London office everyone around you is wearing headphones on Teams calls or head down working at the screen.

When they first started talking about going back to the office once a week, the other option was just to have a night out once every two weeks. It was explained the purpose was not to get people into the office but, rather, to gain something from people spending time together. It was decided Tuesdays in the office was fine but the manager stressed he want people to sit on teams all day. He explained the bank was very happy with the productivity increase since WFH began.

The first time I went into the office, I found they had some strange standard for connecting monitors and I was unable to use anything but my small laptop monitor. It was noisy and little got done. At home, I have the big screen and two 32 inch monitors and it's quiet. I am able to put in a really great day's work and still manage do some trading. When I my manager asked me how the day went late in the afternoon, I told him I got nothing done. His response was "that's ok - it's not why you're here.

When I have teams meetings with one of the guys who likes to go Tuesdays because his son's school is close to the office, nothing gets accomplished. It's noisy with other guys around him and he is almost whispering.

It's clear the working world has moved beyond working in the office and it's only a good thing.

Companies are happy and so are the staff - us independant contracters are happy as well (put that in for my HMRC loving Oliverson since I clearly can't be part of a scrum team with other members and I can't have a boss or colleagues).

[Dorkeaux]

I find the contract work I've taken since well before COVID follows the pattern Herman describes.

My clients say two days a week during the contract negotiations, but the actually don't want me in the office once the contract starts.

The nature of the work has adapted. Even if you do go into the central London office everyone around you is wearing headphones on Teams calls or head down working at the screen.

That's funny. I just got renewed for another year. Few of my colleagues ever go to the office the one "onsite day" at the Dutch big four bank I contract to. I've been there exactly twice so far in 4 1/2 years. A third attempt to go into the office turned into just a weed run and I ended up working from the Dutch hotel as there was nobody on the team there that day.

Two of my team members just got promoted this week and new staff will come onboard to replace them. From what I hear my team is not an exception.

I just read the Dutch government plans to expand immigration to make up for a massive labour shortage.

You really don't think the issue might be this little mistake they call brexit? The government seems to think so but can't seem to change enoigh of the public's mind. Instead, they are left with tacing the citizens to death.

[WTFH]

Ah, another remoaner! You and herman should go on a date.

And you should maybe take a break and think about your words and actions.

[oliverson]

I think this guy has indicated from his posts that English is his third language, so I would cut him a break. Maybe you should get the duolingo out while on the Spanish bench.

Ah, another remoaner! You and herman should go on a date.

[agentzero]

^^^^Permie disguised as contractor right here!!! ^^^^

Throwing in the Brexit reference as well. Laughable. Is it any surprise that HMRC thinks we are all disguised employees with this kind of thinking/approach?

I think this guy has indicated from his posts that English is his third language, so I would cut him a break. Maybe you should get the duolingo out while on the Spanish bench.

[agentzero]

You aren't out of WORK. You are out of CONTRACT. Your work is running your business. Is a guy running a shop out of work when he's not selling something to a customer? Is he out of work when he's closed the shop and can't sell anything doing inventory, cash etc?

In a downturn your advice is rubbish.

With hindsight SchumiStars should've MVLd their company, if they didn't already do that, and applied for whatever benefits they are entitled to. Your libertarian leanings mean you often post silly advice across this forum. We pay a lot of tax, many contractors being in the top 10%, top 5%, top 1%, and there is no shame in applying for what you are entitled to. If you prefer to use up your savings during a downturn worse than the 2008 crisis feel free, but it is a 10 minute job to make a limited company dormant and doesn't cost much to MVL if you have doubts about outside ir35 work. Anyone in this position who doubts their ability to get an outside ir35 contract should be speaking to their account ASAP and performing whatever necessary to organise their affairs effectively.

If inside ir35 is the most likely outcome they should still be claiming whatever they are entitled to. There is no shame in it and folk like you will be quick enough to claim any free NHS vaccines or investigations you are entitled to based on age and medical condition, free bus pass, any one of the range of benefits available to the over 50s.

Get a contract within a fortnight of doing all the effect? Lucky you. 3 years out of work? Unfortunately, at least you've got extra cash and some things paid for. A lot of the advice you have given across this forum for a very long time is typical of an opinionated man and outright incorrect, it's about time you are called out for it.

[agentzero]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/c1e4lyz77jqo

Well that's encouraging, that is if they do build it. I do.feel.thag WFH, is one of main contributors to the downturn.

You think if everyone was forced into an office the use of AI (not LLM) and automation in businesses would stop and the grads and young people without a job would suddenly get work? That there would be more jobs? That's before mentioning the cost of the commute in a stagnated or even a lower wage environment as we've seen since the 2008 crash.

You are losing your mind due to being out of work for so long. Remote work is normal across Europe and North America.

[herman_g]

^^^^Permie disguised as contractor right here!!! ^^^^

Throwing in the Brexit reference as well. Laughable. Is it any surprise that HMRC thinks we are all disguised employees with this kind of thinking/approach?

And two contractors who recently joined the team WFH in the UK through their uk ltds, have an SOW from the client, are outside IR35 and fully tax compliant with both Dutch and UK law. We have one member living in Belgium, one in Latvia and two working as independants from India (Dutch permanent residents) - the bank has a "work from anywhere" policy that is wide open. One team member spends months at a time in Portugal and one does the same in South Africa as well.