Reply to: Getting client agreements for other "perks" when rate rises are not on the table

[psychocandy]

One day yes. 2 or three and it feels like a Phyrric victory when you consider the cost of train fare not being used when it's the same price for a season ticket each week as it is for 2 or 3 individual tickets :s

Objectively speaking, though, I suppose you;re better off.

Season ticket costs roughly per week the cost of 4 day returns. So if you work 4 days you're just not making anything. I'd probably get anyway in this case, just to avoid the hassle of having to buy a ticket every day.

I time my arrival at the station to the minute! So that'd be minimum 2/3 minutes per day wasted. And its mega hassle when some of the ticket machines are broke!

To be honest, one day WFH a week is still 3 hours. Is one day where I can be home for a doctor/dentist appt, be able to drop daughter at childminder so wife can do an extra shift if she wants etc.

[jmo21]

One of them was boasting about all the things they just got through the company without a shred of care about it not being allowable.

These types are morons. All that has happened is they have taken company money and spent. It's not til much later when they get investigates that it becomes an issue.

[Old Greg]

One day yes. 2 or three and it feels like a Phyrric victory when you consider the cost of train fare not being used when it's the same price for a season ticket each week as it is for 2 or 3 individual tickets :s

Objectively speaking, though, I suppose you;re better off.

This may improve:

flexiSeason : Southern

Here in Ireland, train commuting is about the only cheap thing and an annual season ticket is fully tax deductible, including for permies.

[Old Greg]

I have "WFH whenever I feel like it" and have had for years.

Exactly. I'm in Week 3 of my new contract and I have worked at home when it made sense and worked hours around meetings with other potential clients. One of those weeks was noticeably light on hours so I billed 4.5 hours.

Do a superb job from day 1 and act like you're a business.

[SpontaneousOrder]

Even one day per week WFH would be golden for me.

One day yes. 2 or three and it feels like a Phyrric victory when you consider the cost of train fare not being used when it's the same price for a season ticket each week as it is for 2 or 3 individual tickets :s

Objectively speaking, though, I suppose you;re better off.

[fidot]

I'd be OK with one day a fortnight to be honest. Better than nothing. If I go in with two days WFH they'll just fall off the chair and say no.

but you've already admitted that you're crap at negotiation. Maybe there's a link between that and the quote above?

[psychocandy]

I couldn't really understand the level annoyance you have sometime but I am starting to understand now.

Working on my first gig with lots of other contractors. Usually its just me. Most of them are clearly bum on seat types. We are all working on the same project but I behave differently to them.

One of them was boasting about all the things they just got through the company without a shred of care about it not being allowable.

Its for sure the closest IR35 gig I have had. I am fighting to stay on the right side of it. Its been reviewed by Abbey Tax and insured and I am making sure my working practices stay on the right side. But it all goes to tulip if the client talks about me in the same way the others operate if I am ever investigated.

I think we all fly close to the bone at times. I am starting to get more annoyed at the ones who bring so much focus on us all though. It doesn't help. But at the same time you have to recognise we all surely fly close at points.

I don't think I will be extending here Hoping something else comes up

Fair play DX. I've met fellow contractors who are clueless about what IR35 is, or say they dont waste money on IPSE. Or ones who take the piss with expenses claims, dont bother registering for flat rate vat etc.

I've also worked with contractors who fill out permie leave forms, work without contracts in place, go to perm only meetings and all sorts.

[northernladuk]

I couldn't really understand the level annoyance you have sometime but I am starting to understand now.

This is somewhat true and yes it annoys me. Don't forget I'm just a miserable arse in general. The sun is shining outside and it's a beautiful day. This makes me grumpy and miserable as it's hard work to stay grumpy and miserable when the weather is so nice... You getting me

There are many others who have the same annoyance but convey it in a much more professional and productive way to be honest... but it is a factor yes.

Working on my first gig with lots of other contractors. Usually its just me. Most of them are clearly bum on seat types. We are all working on the same project but I behave differently to them.

One of them was boasting about all the things they just got through the company without a shred of care about it not being allowable.

Its for sure the closest IR35 gig I have had. I am fighting to stay on the right side of it. Its been reviewed by Abbey Tax and insured and I am making sure my working practices stay on the right side. But it all goes to tulip if the client talks about me in the same way the others operate if I am ever investigated.

I think we all fly close to the bone at times. I am starting to get more annoyed at the ones who bring so much focus on us all though. It doesn't help. But at the same time you have to recognise we all surely fly close at points.

I don't think I will be extending here Hoping something else comes up

Indeed. If you can't spot the permatractor at a gig then you are it IMO.

But.... don't be like me. It's part of the game. You play yours and let them play theirs. Don't let their failings spoil what you like doing. You berating them about not knowing what IR35 won't matter one jot to them so leave them to it.

[psychocandy]

That doesn't make it right for them either, though, does it?

Nothing wrong with being inside IR35 - it's not got the same stigma as, say, public sector work. I just think you need to consider that you might well be inside IR35 and suck it up.

Maybe HMRC would be of that opinion. BUT, like I said, QDOS review my contracts, and, to date, every one has passed in their opinion (sometimes after changes). BUT Im aware that working practices is the thing - and also that 'some' practices have been borderline....

BUT, I've done my due dilligence as far as I can surely? On that basis, IPSE will cover me and defend me - as they should. It might all go wrong of course.

Despite my situation not being 100% water tight I know a LOT of people who would be easier targets than me.

[psychocandy]

Yup.. I'd ask you a question though.. What point would you call a gig inside? I bet you wouldn't. You'd just rock on and take the risk wouldn't you? That's not a criticism per se. Plenty do. It's not in my risk profile personally, but if your role sits in this grey area it may just the way it is for you.

A difficult one. If I ever got a contract reviewed and QDOS said its inside and I couldn't get it changed then maybe.

BUT like you said I might just risk it. I would probably be wary and, if I could, not stick with this gig for too long if at all possible.

Then again, at the moment, QDOS OK my contracts, I'm an IPSE member. I'm confident that the chances of being investigated AND IPSE failing to defend me are very slim.

[dx4100]

Again, it's not holier than thou, I've just explained that. They are different roles fulfilling different requirements for the customer. Nothing wrong with using these points as decision points. If you don't and we are ALL contractors then we don't have a chance of fighting any IR35 challenge. HMRC see us as all in, we say we are all out. Plainly both arguments fail badly. If agreement can be reached that certain are in HMRC are happy, certain are out, we are happy. How the hell you draw those lines I don't begin to know but it's better than people like IPSE defending the indefensible. You've can't help but admit HMRC are quite correct in certain situation.



But if HMRC can come to some agreement about what is in and what isn't that will change. The fact that we are arguing everyone is outside is why IPSE and QDOS are doing this. I've long said I'm concerned that they offer insurance that covers everyone carte blanche at the same price. I'm not aware of many other insurance products that don't take a risk based approach. I don't see why I should pay the same amount as someone who is clearly a bum on seat disguised permie or has decided to work at the client for 5 years and become part and parcel. The whole insurance thing is a moot point though so moving on....



Sadly this is true.



Yup.. I'd ask you a question though.. What point would you call a gig inside? I bet you wouldn't. You'd just rock on and take the risk wouldn't you? That's not a criticism per se. Plenty do. It's not in my risk profile personally, but if your role sits in this grey area it may just the way it is for you.

I couldn't really understand the level annoyance you have sometime but I am starting to understand now.

Working on my first gig with lots of other contractors. Usually its just me. Most of them are clearly bum on seat types. We are all working on the same project but I behave differently to them.

One of them was boasting about all the things they just got through the company without a shred of care about it not being allowable.

Its for sure the closest IR35 gig I have had. I am fighting to stay on the right side of it. Its been reviewed by Abbey Tax and insured and I am making sure my working practices stay on the right side. But it all goes to tulip if the client talks about me in the same way the others operate if I am ever investigated.

I think we all fly close to the bone at times. I am starting to get more annoyed at the ones who bring so much focus on us all though. It doesn't help. But at the same time you have to recognise we all surely fly close at points.

I don't think I will be extending here Hoping something else comes up

[LondonManc]

LM - yes I've been contracting off and on for 20+ years. I know full well that the sort of thing I do is borderline. But I would suggest that there are a LOT of people in the same situation.

But, it doesnt mean its inside IR35. Very grey area as we all know. Theres more too it than that and you know that too.

That doesn't make it right for them either, though, does it?

Nothing wrong with being inside IR35 - it's not got the same stigma as, say, public sector work. I just think you need to consider that you might well be inside IR35 and suck it up.

[northernladuk]

I think its unwise for those doing 100% project work to look at those who don't do this and take a "holier than thou" attitude. Contracting is populated with all sorts of people or roles and we're all just different darknesses of grey as far as HMRC are concerned.

Again, it's not holier than thou, I've just explained that. They are different roles fulfilling different requirements for the customer. Nothing wrong with using these points as decision points. If you don't and we are ALL contractors then we don't have a chance of fighting any IR35 challenge. HMRC see us as all in, we say we are all out. Plainly both arguments fail badly. If agreement can be reached that certain are in HMRC are happy, certain are out, we are happy. How the hell you draw those lines I don't begin to know but it's better than people like IPSE defending the indefensible. You've can't help but admit HMRC are quite correct in certain situation.

Also, I don't see IPSE refusing to cover anyone for IR35 cover just because they do an element of BAU work? Nor do QDOS I understand?
Yes both parties will expect due dilligence. All contracts I get are reviewed by QDOS and pass.

But if HMRC can come to some agreement about what is in and what isn't that will change. The fact that we are arguing everyone is outside is why IPSE and QDOS are doing this. I've long said I'm concerned that they offer insurance that covers everyone carte blanche at the same price. I'm not aware of many other insurance products that don't take a risk based approach. I don't see why I should pay the same amount as someone who is clearly a bum on seat disguised permie or has decided to work at the client for 5 years and become part and parcel. The whole insurance thing is a moot point though so moving on....

I appreciate working practices are more important but I don't see either IPSE/QDOS insisting on proof of this at the moment. Until, these organisations start saying, sorry no cover because you mentioned BAU, then its not a clear cut thing.

Sadly this is true.

People like me just have to do what we can but understand we may be a darker shade of grey.

Yup.. I'd ask you a question though.. What point would you call a gig inside? I bet you wouldn't. You'd just rock on and take the risk wouldn't you? That's not a criticism per se. Plenty do. It's not in my risk profile personally, but if your role sits in this grey area it may just the way it is for you.

[psychocandy]

If your target is one day per week WFH, your opening position needs to be more than that. Give room for negotiation/haggling.

I'd be OK with one day a fortnight to be honest. Better than nothing. If I go in with two days WFH they'll just fall off the chair and say no.

[fidot]

If your target is one day per week WFH, your opening position needs to be more than that. Give room for negotiation/haggling.