Reply to: Sagacity... Ever heard of them?

[LondonManc]

My exact thinking as well. I have asked if we could do the Birmingham role as a contract that I work and then walk away from rather than be a sagacity "employee". Doubt they will go for it. Plenty of other work out there otherwise. I simply don't want to lose control of my business model of picking and choosing on my terms.

Bit negative. As said further up, different contract for each project would work.

[SlipTheJab]

I just asked that and the agency said it's fixed rate. So basically wherever I go it's a standard rate and the contract doesn't change. I would basically be a permie for the consultancy in many respects. I'm really not 100% on the model but may be overthinking it.

Theres your answer.

[blueislander]

My exact thinking as well. I have asked if we could do the Birmingham role as a contract that I work and then walk away from rather than be a sagacity "employee". Doubt they will go for it. Plenty of other work out there otherwise. I simply don't want to lose control of my business model of picking and choosing on my terms.

[MrMarkyMark]

I just asked that and the agency said it's fixed rate. So basically wherever I go it's a standard rate and the contract doesn't change. I would basically be a permie for the consultancy in many respects. I'm really not 100% on the model but may be overthinking it.

Hmmmmm. sounds a little bit caught on those terms.
Time to get contract reviewed?

[LondonManc]

Well, if they wish to send you somewhere else on another project, shouldn't this be a new contract, complete with new rate etc...?

I guess it depends on how the original contract is worded and how QDOS or similar perceive it. D&C a distinct possibility.

[blueislander]

Well, if they wish to send you somewhere else on another project, shouldn't this be a new contract, complete with new rate etc...?

I just asked that and the agency said it's fixed rate. So basically wherever I go it's a standard rate and the contract doesn't change. I would basically be a permie for the consultancy in many respects. I'm really not 100% on the model but may be overthinking it.

[MrMarkyMark]

the role I applied for was a day rate contract in brum and the reality is going into business with a consultancy who could see fit to send me here there and everywhere.

Well, if they wish to send you somewhere else on another project, shouldn't this be a new contract, complete with new rate etc...?

[blueislander]

Okay so had the meeting, CEO was fine, was only 40 mins so have emailed back asking for confirmation that travel and hotel is paid for when away at client site (positive that it is but want guarantee). Still not sure about it all... the role I applied for was a day rate contract in brum and the reality is going into business with a consultancy who could see fit to send me here there and everywhere. Rate is fine when not in London but I could get more working in the city, but the plus would be constant work at a fixed rate so no need to dip into warchest.

Gonna have to mull this one over but need to reply today/tomorrow methinks.

[cojak]

But anyway, a small consultancy bringing in specialist skills to prop up their service to their client isn't a blanket IR35 fail IMO.

No it isn't, but when they proudly give you a box of business cards you know it's time to head for the exit.

[blueislander]

Thanks for all the feedback guys, very interesting discussions and all helpful. I'll give a more detailed breakdown tonight hopefully as I now have a big old drive but I was offered a position within half an hour of exiting the building. Plenty to think about over the weekend so will update.

[Hapax]

......

I did raise a thread many moons ago about the issue around how your clients client treat you affect IR35. i.e. if you were sitting on Saga Citys clients site and D&C you does it matter because Saga City doesn't etc. Where do you stand if your client insists on you looking like an employee to their client. You could argue it doesn't matter, you have no commercial arrangement with Saga's client so if you look like a Saga permie to them it won't matter and so on. Never really got to the bottom of it though.

But anyway, a small consultancy bringing in specialist skills to prop up their service to their client isn't a blanket IR35 fail IMO.

My understanding is that if the final client treats you as an employee then so will HMRC. It's independent of how many layers of intermediaries there are between you and that final client.

[MrMarkyMark]

Yes, I agree for specialist skills. In a way it may be better as they are more likely to use you for what is required and then kick you out.

That's what usually happens to me when I do any work for consultancies.

[GB9]

Surely that depends on whether you are supplying a specialist skill to the consultancy?
I don't think you can apply a general rule that all consultancy gigs are IR35 caught.

Yes, I agree for specialist skills. In a way it may be better as they are more likely to use you for what is required and then kick you out.

The Sagacity guys were generic BAs though.

Also agree with NL's comment about pricing being the client issue. Nothing specifically against Sagacity as I have seen the same in a couple of places.

[northernladuk]

Surely that depends on whether you are supplying a specialist skill to the consultancy?
I don't think you can apply a general rule that all consultancy gigs are IR35 caught.

I would totally agree with this. With some consultancies you never get to meet them again and you sit on their clients site so D&C etc can't be from them and so on.

I did raise a thread many moons ago about the issue around how your clients client treat you affect IR35. i.e. if you were sitting on Saga Citys clients site and D&C you does it matter because Saga City doesn't etc. Where do you stand if your client insists on you looking like an employee to their client. You could argue it doesn't matter, you have no commercial arrangement with Saga's client so if you look like a Saga permie to them it won't matter and so on. Never really got to the bottom of it though.

But anyway, a small consultancy bringing in specialist skills to prop up their service to their client isn't a blanket IR35 fail IMO.

[MrMarkyMark]

I do think most consultancy roles would be inside ir35 though as they invariably have their own way of working and Wang to protect their reputation etc.

Surely that depends on whether you are supplying a specialist skill to the consultancy?
I don't think you can apply a general rule that all consultancy gigs are IR35 caught.