Reply to: Issue with first contract

[NotAllThere]

That might be YOUR opinion NLUK but I don't there is any precedent, legal or otherwise, between IR35 investigations and claiming benefits. I'm prepared to be proven wrong though.

Next thing you'll be telling me a kitten dies every time I claim benefits.....

Nonsense. But a puppy does...

Thread closed as wandered far off topic.

[psychocandy]

Oh. You have a contract of employment do you? You are also the director and only person in the company.

You might believe that but do you think that will stand up in an investigation where they are trying to prove you are a disguised permie? Do a job until it ends, go on benefits, start another job. What does that sound like to you?

That might be YOUR opinion NLUK but I don't there is any precedent, legal or otherwise, between IR35 investigations and claiming benefits. I'm prepared to be proven wrong though.

Next thing you'll be telling me a kitten dies every time I claim benefits.....

[northernladuk]

You mean the business that lays off its employee temporarily when theres no work? Company continues to trade during this time of course.

Not relevant at all.

Oh. You have a contract of employment do you? You are also the director and only person in the company.

You might believe that but do you think that will stand up in an investigation where they are trying to prove you are a disguised permie? Do a job until it ends, go on benefits, start another job. What does that sound like to you?

[MrMarkyMark]

If it all starts with the contract (and I don't doubt that it starts there) and we're all getting our contracts changed to be IR35 watertight, HMRC would never investigate anything would they?

Yes, they may just leave it there. But then again, if they're in one of their "it's been a while, let's make an example of someone" moods, they may start with the contract and continue right on to examining the actual working practices, no?

Point being and I think we are actually in agreement, if they had a "few" candidates to investigate, I believe they would start with the ones who contracts failed.
This opens the door to the next stage, deeper investigation, looking at working practices etc.

Also, whilst how you're treated by the client can be affected by how you come across (i.e. If you're a doormat, you will get walked all over) but there are some clients out there (quite a few actually) who, no matter how you come across, will treat you as a simple expendable resource and just like "one of the permies". Which is why many clients won't entertain the idea of you working from home for example. The permies can't do it, neither can you.

The problem is, as I have said on here before, everyone, on here, is in a different situation.
My roles tend to be advisory / lead positions, therefore, I engage and engaged with, different to some.
I haven't spoken to my line manager directly, for 2 months, for example. I give her a headline progress report, each week, that's it, as I'm the one running things.

As such, when it comes to things I want in place, or the way I wish to work, we hammer these things out, in the interview, prior to any offer being made.

[psychocandy]

Dunno about that... Is this person a business?... that jacks it in and claims benefits in between gigs.... How that isn't going to be an instant fail I don't know what is.

You mean the business that lays off its employee temporarily when theres no work? Company continues to trade during this time of course.

Not relevant at all.

[billybiro]

Christ on a bike

As I said earlier, the first thing HMRC do is look at the contract. Unless they see low hanging fruit, they may just leave it there.

As for your second point, I believe, how you are treated depends on how you engage with the client initially.
If at interview you come across as a push over, then the client may take advantage of that fact.

If it all starts with the contract (and I don't doubt that it starts there) and we're all getting our contracts changed to be IR35 watertight, HMRC would never investigate anything would they?

Yes, they may just leave it there. But then again, if they're in one of their "it's been a while, let's make an example of someone" moods, they may start with the contract and continue right on to examining the actual working practices, no?

Also, whilst how you're treated by the client can be affected by how you come across (i.e. If you're a doormat, you will get walked all over) but there are some clients out there (quite a few actually) who, no matter how you come across, will treat you as a simple expendable resource and just like "one of the permies". Which is why many clients won't entertain the idea of you working from home for example. The permies can't do it, neither can you.

[northernladuk]

Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that there might be a LOT of easier targets out there before HMRC get to me!

Dunno about that... Is this person a business?... that jacks it in and claims benefits in between gigs.... How that isn't going to be an instant fail I don't know what is.

[fool]

I must admit I find it hard to believe that 30 years the poster in question leaves it to the agencies to sort out. Surely even the greenest newest contractor will discover in 30 days that agents are only looking after one set of interests.

But when the agent says to me "why are you being awkward, everyone else just accepts it" I used to think "yeh, yeh, lying dog". Know I'm beginning to wonder how many people there are like this poster - maybe there is some truth in what the agent says.

In a way, it makes me happy, I always get my contracts reviewed etc. I've got IPSE membership. Im beginning to wonder how many people are out there who blindly sign anything, and stick their head in the sand with regards to IR35.

Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that there might be a LOT of easier targets out there before HMRC get to me!

You should show less pride in being HMRC performing monkey seal. We aren't outrunning the bear, we're leaving the fat kid to die and its a sad state of affaris we're in.

[gables]

I must admit I find it hard to believe that 30 years the poster in question leaves it to the agencies to sort out. Surely even the greenest newest contractor will discover in 30 days that agents are only looking after one set of interests.

But when the agent says to me "why are you being awkward, everyone else just accepts it" I used to think "yeh, yeh, lying dog". Know I'm beginning to wonder how many people there are like this poster - maybe there is some truth in what the agent says.

In a way, it makes me happy, I always get my contracts reviewed etc. I've got IPSE membership. Im beginning to wonder how many people are out there who blindly sign anything, and stick their head in the sand with regards to IR35.

Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that there might be a LOT of easier targets out there before HMRC get to me!

Or they're working through an umbrella, loads do. Or they accept that the working practices (which trump the contract we're lead to believe) point to IR35 and remunerate themselves as such. Or they have working practices (which trump the contract we're lead to believe) which clearly put themselves outside IR35 if that's how they want to operate.

Or they can interpret and understand a contract along with the working practice and make an informed judgement rather than feed the companies that feed off fear.

[psychocandy]

I must admit I find it hard to believe that 30 years the poster in question leaves it to the agencies to sort out. Surely even the greenest newest contractor will discover in 30 days that agents are only looking after one set of interests.

But when the agent says to me "why are you being awkward, everyone else just accepts it" I used to think "yeh, yeh, lying dog". Know I'm beginning to wonder how many people there are like this poster - maybe there is some truth in what the agent says.

In a way, it makes me happy, I always get my contracts reviewed etc. I've got IPSE membership. Im beginning to wonder how many people are out there who blindly sign anything, and stick their head in the sand with regards to IR35.

Gives me a warm fuzzy feeling that there might be a LOT of easier targets out there before HMRC get to me!

[fool]

You're trying to do what everyone does - use argument. What I asked for is evidence. Show me two people working side by side on Huxley contracts. Both come under attack from HMRC but one of them had B&C changes and the other didn't. The one with changes got off and the other didn't. Show me that. That would do nicely.

The reason I say this is what little I've seen over the years suggests really genuine mini-consultancies can get done whereas slam-dunk bums-on-seats contractors get off scot free. It's a lottery.

I respect QDOS etc in their ability to defend me but I doubt very much whether they can add/change words to big agency contracts that add up to anything in 'court'.

I don't do the deemed salary thing if that's what you mean. I know tax is necessary and they need to spend it on all sorts of important things but personally I can't afford it what with the cost of flying, Michelin restaurants, good Marlborough Sauvignon Blanc etc .

I'm also not using evidence but if you're contracts folly and nobody at the client remembers you or your working practices you're in a murky situation whilst if the contract was good they'd leave well alone.

Also generally you're negotiating with agents who won't necessarily be exclusive, so they have incentive to cave.

[fool]

+1 if the start was imminent.



This is so true if you are providing a true specialist skill.
I have known people with time on their side, interview 30+ people prior to me getting the role
One was only for 3 months duration as well!

People will also wait for certain individuals to become available, but, again, this is when people are selling a true specialist skill.

True specialist skill is being average at a generic role and not misspelling yourself in a sea of charlatans. Once people trust you, they will wait.

[MrMarkyMark]

Whilst it's certainly a valid point to at least try to get the contract changed to have more favourable terms, isn't it also true that HMRC will take actual working practices into account just as much, if not more so, that the wording on the contract?

Given that case, I can kind of understand Cirrus's point. Your contract can be watertight, but if you get in there and on day one the client wants to treat you effectively as a "temporary permie" (as so many clients seem to want to do), then there's really very little you can do to be absolutely sure you're outside IR35 (short of terminating the contract).

Christ on a bike

As I said earlier, the first thing HMRC do is look at the contract. Unless they see low hanging fruit, they may just leave it there.

As for your second point, I believe, how you are treated depends on how you engage with the client initially.
If at interview you come across as a push over, then the client may take advantage of that fact.

The reason I say this is what little I've seen over the years suggests really genuine mini-consultancies can get done

Really, you must be joking right? If its a genuine mini consultancy it has employees, how would you catch the consultancy out with IR35?
Unless you mean a contractor working for that mini consultancy being inside?

[Eventar]

Wasn't expecting this thread to get so many replies! Thanks for your advice so far.

So it turns out my agent decided to go on holiday without saying anything, hence him not answering my calls. Seemed to be a coincidence that I wasn't able to get through to other people I was forwarded from their receptionist.

Got through to the agent's manager in the end to get things sorted, and also got my amended contract (minus a not hugely important change that was being held up by the client) which I've now signed.

That's an insanely long turnaround.

Capita involved by any chance?

Long turnaround indeed, but I've had to work a 4 week notice period for my permie job first

As many have said already, the job ain't mine until I start, which certainly doesn't help my anxiety levels whilst in the middle of my notice period

[Gordon Ice]

Quiet Pimp =

= Role has gone OR
= They've found someone else

Get interviewing and find another role.. their loss.