Reply to: UBS Rate Cut

[BolshieBastard]

Maybe he meant 'WBBS'??

Aye possibly. I had a cob on last night after the footie.

[cojak]

Maybe he meant 'WBBS'??

[BolshieBastard]

You are in a business. your client does not pay what you think your services are worth. if the said services can be sold to another client then walk. Else suck it up and your principle with it. YOU ARE A BUSINESS. NOT AN EMPLOYEE WITH A TRADE UNION.

Are you pissed or just cannot quote the correct poster!?

Read what I posted numpty.

[AnthonyQuinn]

A lot boils down to principle. Do you want to be treated like a dog (or worse) by swallowing a rate cut and moaning about it or grow a pair and stand against it?

Clients know the majority of contractors tulip the bed at the thought of having no income for a while. So guess what? They cut the rate because they know most will accept it.

And cutting rate in the run up to Christmas when the market can be slack is just cynical and highlights what they really think you are worth.

Its the old addage, accept it and they'll continue to do it. Stop accepting it, publicise the client who do it, stop taking on work for them and they'll stop cutting.

You are in a business. your client does not pay what you think your services are worth. if the said services can be sold to another client then walk. Else suck it up and your principle with it. YOU ARE A BUSINESS. NOT AN EMPLOYEE WITH A TRADE UNION.

[SussexSeagull]

Not really... if you leave then come back a few months later you can pretty much always get a better rate.

Fair enough then. The randomness of UK business at times never ceases to amaze me.

[Underscore Pt2]

Aren't all these 10% rate cuts beginning to accumulate and make IB contracting less competitive, especially when you take into account the long hours and stress people go on about?

Note I have never worked in the sector so am only going on what I have heard.

Not really... if you leave then come back a few months later you can pretty much always get a better rate.

[ChimpMaster]

To me, the main source of stress is the 10% rate cuts, or prospects of such
The trend to outsource to a cheap labour hasn't stopped, the banks are still trying to bring cheap bodies whatever way they can.
We've all seen how it ended when a bunch of untrained, unqualified devs developed a system for one of the institutions.
Doesn't seem to be bothering the other guys...

Exactly this.

I contracted in the city for a few years until there was a huge influx of insourced cheap labour and offshoring of work. There were rate cuts but more often than not there was simply contractor-culls. A decent UK contractor was being replaced with up to 5 or 6 offshore staff. They couldn't always find offshore staff so then they tried near-shore (Europe), which I understand also didn't pan out too well. I don't know who's idea it was but no doubt pockets were lined because I cannot fathom how it was working out financially better to have multiple inexperienced staff at different offices in India and in Europe - certainly it was worse for the business and for operations teams.

Yes I was very sad, and even bitter, about what I saw happening around me - good people being pushed out for cheap, inexperienced labour that wasn't capable of performing anywhere near to the same standard. And it wasn't even cheap in the end, it was more expensive.

But I left a few years ago and I honestly don't see myself going back. The rate cuts, the offshoring, the stigma attached to freelancers - it exists more in the City than I have found anywhere else. I find you can earn a more decent wedge and gain more respect almost anywhere other than the City now.

[yasockie]

Aren't all these 10% rate cuts beginning to accumulate and make IB contracting less competitive, especially when you take into account the long hours and stress people go on about?

Note I have never worked in the sector so am only going on what I have heard.

To me, the main source of stress is the 10% rate cuts, or prospects of such
The trend to outsource to a cheap labour hasn't stopped, the banks are still trying to bring cheap bodies whatever way they can.
We've all seen how it ended when a bunch of untrained, unqualified devs developed a system for one of the institutions.
Doesn't seem to be bothering the other guys...

[SussexSeagull]

Aren't all these 10% rate cuts beginning to accumulate and make IB contracting less competitive, especially when you take into account the long hours and stress people go on about?

Note I have never worked in the sector so am only going on what I have heard.

[BolshieBastard]

Which of course is worthless unless a significant proportion of contractors adopt the same approach, the clients know that would require organisation and cooperation which don't exist. They've done this rate cut routine for several years and know they can get away with it, but you know that better than me since I've not worked in the finance sector in a decade.

That's my point. Everyone has to stand firm. Contractors need to stop being pussies.

In any event, the cheaper option is frequently also the inferior option.

[TykeMerc]

Clients know the majority of contractors tulip the bed at the thought of having no income for a while. So guess what? They cut the rate because they know most will accept it.

Its the old addage, accept it and they'll continue to do it. Stop accepting it, publicise the client who do it, stop taking on work for them and they'll stop cutting.

Which of course is worthless unless a significant proportion of contractors adopt the same approach, the clients know that would require organisation and cooperation which don't exist. They've done this rate cut routine for several years and know they can get away with it, but you know that better than me since I've not worked in the finance sector in a decade.

[BolshieBastard]

A lot boils down to principle. Do you want to be treated like a dog (or worse) by swallowing a rate cut and moaning about it or grow a pair and stand against it?

Clients know the majority of contractors tulip the bed at the thought of having no income for a while. So guess what? They cut the rate because they know most will accept it.

And cutting rate in the run up to Christmas when the market can be slack is just cynical and highlights what they really think you are worth.

Its the old addage, accept it and they'll continue to do it. Stop accepting it, publicise the client who do it, stop taking on work for them and they'll stop cutting.

[Bluenose]

Not to mention the timing. I mean, how many people will say stuff it at this time of year? Not only is there not much around or even if there is, everybody is in Xmas mode, so you could be on the bench for a couple of months easy. Let's say people are on a day rate of, I don't know, £ 500 (to make the maths easy for me). 2 months = around 40 billable days so that's £ 20k you'd just throw away only to say "told you so" when you walk. That's permie mentality not business mentality, unless you happen to be sat on a very large warchest. Who's to say the next role you land will be on the same or better rate as pre-cut anyhow? The more banks that cut and the more competition for roles, the less they put the roles out at. Grim, grisly business. No, the trick is to get paid while you're looking. Win, win. (just don't be looking for too long).

Money and happyness are rarely linked but I will see your 20K loss by walking and consider what happened to me at RBS:

a) The problem I found was the notice period of current contracts at IB's means that you could lose a £15k invoice by walking for the next role paying 20% more - £600pd by your calculation example

b) The current behaviour of agents insists that you are immediately available otherwise, the chance of you being put forward are slim so see above.

c) I actually made money by walking and chewing the £20k loss by going immediately on holiday and doing my telephone interviews from there and bailing back to the UK for face-to-face, when I came back into new contract I was neutral over the financial year and had a suntan paid for by the rate increase. Next financial year I will be up even further.

d) The guys I know that did not throw in the towel are still there now, moaning they can't get an interview because of tulip notice period.

The other thing that got my goat was the timing, seems UBS playing the same card, just before the Christmas period. Well, I am sorry but its a middle finger from me on all counts and I won't be back because the rates you pay in Banking now are lower than other areas of the economy.

[Scrag Meister]

Welcome to the happy world of Finance contracting.

WCS

[financeguy]

From asking around onsite it appears that direct contractors are in a distinct minority. A lot of contractors are operating via consultancies (fdm,datainc,wipro,hcl to name a few) and aren't currently affected by this rate cut. For the last year or so ubs have been switching increasingly to using a consultancy model so that resources don't count as headcount. When they have 10000 jobs to cut this helps them hide headcount easier! Needless to say the Big 4 pimping out grads at 1000+ a day won't be taking a hit anytime soon either.