Reply to: Que será, será

[Old Greg]

You've demonstrated nothing but unrelated waffle.

HTH.

Just Bridgwater sockie fare. Best mocked or ignored.

[JohntheBike]

You've demonstrated nothing but unrelated waffle.

HTH.

losing the argument then!

It is said that the "oldies" swung the referendum vote, and I'm demonstrating one aspect of why some might have been influenced.

[meridian]

"we charge more for them"

they would have been significantly less costly if we had not joined the UK, which as I've indicated with the Dacia example, would have over-ridden any quality/reliability issues.

Just to demonstrate.

In 1973 I toured the Continent by car. There I met up with an IT professional in Holland and we discussed salaries and the cost of living etc. I was working shifts as a supervisor of a large computer bureau, with 11 people reporting to me. He was a programmer workings days if I remember correctly. His salary was well over twice as much as mine, although his living expenses were much higher also. However, he was driving a Mercedes which would have been impossible for me to buy in this country. Yes, the Mercedes was probably a much better car that the BL offering I was driving, but it was also more than double the cost. So price will always defeat the quality/reliability argument. This is why we buy so much these days from third World countries.

You've demonstrated nothing but unrelated waffle.

HTH.

[JohntheBike]

Yes, of course it's all the EU's fault that we make crap unreliable cars and we charge more for them, and that our government departments don't want to buy our expensive crap unreliable cars.

"we charge more for them"

they would have been significantly less costly if we had not joined the UK, which as I've indicated with the Dacia example, would have over-ridden any quality/reliability issues.

Just to demonstrate.

In 1973 I toured the Continent by car. There I met up with an IT professional in Holland and we discussed salaries and the cost of living etc. I was working shifts as a supervisor of a large computer bureau, with 11 people reporting to me. He was a programmer workings days if I remember correctly. His salary was well over twice as much as mine, although his living expenses were much higher also. However, he was driving a Mercedes which would have been impossible for me to buy in this country. Yes, the Mercedes was probably a much better car that the BL offering I was driving, but it was also more than double the cost. So price will always defeat the quality/reliability argument. This is why we buy so much these days from third World countries.

[meridian]

the EU has already mainly achieved that when compared with the situation prior to us joining the EU. Ford don't make a private car here in the UK any longer. Most of our traditional marques have disappeared. In the 1960's, only 1 in 10 cars on our roads was made abroad, now it's difficult to spot a car made in this country.

There is an argument that our car industry suffered demise for quality, reliability and production issues, but my contention is that if we had not been part of the EU, the likes of Ford etc. would have found it more difficult to switch manufacturing to the EU.

If we take the quality issue, then that can easily be countered by cost. Dacia cars are popular, not because of their quality or reliability aspects, but because they are cheap to buy. The same situation would have endured with our products if we had not joined the EU. In the 60's a Renault tin can (Floride/Caravelle) was the same price here as a MK2 Jaguar. Whatever quality or reliability issues you direct at the Jaguar, it was a far better car than the Renault, and also cheaper.

If you go to Germany, then you can't fail to notice that all Government department related cars are either Audis, BMWs or Mercedes. The same is true for Italy. Most are Fiats or Alfas. France is exactly the same. Most official cars are Renaults, Citroens or Peugeots.

Apart from Mrs' May's Jaguar, most cabinet Ministers cars appear to be BMWs. Do you think the Germans would use Jaguars? Hardly.

The same is true of our Police forces. The majority of vehicles are BMWs. None of this would have happened if we had not been members of the EU.

Yes, of course it's all the EU's fault that we make crap unreliable cars and we charge more for them, and that our government departments don't want to buy our expensive crap unreliable cars.

[JohntheBike]

Is one of the changes you would like to see the near elimination of manufacturing in the British economy and for jobs to be mainly in industries such as design and marketing?

the EU has already mainly achieved that when compared with the situation prior to us joining the EU. Ford don't make a private car here in the UK any longer. Most of our traditional marques have disappeared. In the 1960's, only 1 in 10 cars on our roads was made abroad, now it's difficult to spot a car made in this country.

There is an argument that our car industry suffered demise for quality, reliability and production issues, but my contention is that if we had not been part of the EU, the likes of Ford etc. would have found it more difficult to switch manufacturing to the EU.

If we take the quality issue, then that can easily be countered by cost. Dacia cars are popular, not because of their quality or reliability aspects, but because they are cheap to buy. The same situation would have endured with our products if we had not joined the EU. In the 60's a Renault tin can (Floride/Caravelle) was the same price here as a MK2 Jaguar. Whatever quality or reliability issues you direct at the Jaguar, it was a far better car than the Renault, and also cheaper.

If you go to Germany, then you can't fail to notice that all Government department related cars are either Audis, BMWs or Mercedes. The same is true for Italy. Most are Fiats or Alfas. France is exactly the same. Most official cars are Renaults, Citroens or Peugeots.

Apart from Mrs' May's Jaguar, most cabinet Ministers cars appear to be BMWs. Do you think the Germans would use Jaguars? Hardly.

The same is true of our Police forces. The majority of vehicles are BMWs. None of this would have happened if we had not been members of the EU.

[Whorty]

So you are ok with slavery then?

The argument is thus.

Everyone is free to chose a career.

Therefore everyone is free not to chose a career in healthcare

Therefore if there are no people working in healthcare and you believe healthcare is a human right the therefore some people must be forced into slavery to work in healthcare.

The actual larger argument is you cannot have a basic human right which requires the effort of others.

FFS

[Cirrus]

I really struggle with why you are so resistant to change and have a deep desire to be a part of a centralised Europe, it's fine, it's your choice and I respect that but I simply do not understand it.

There is absolutely no truth in saying anti-Brexiteers are resistant to change. You haven't offered any change, just completely undefined nothingness. No new world order, no new immigration, trade or sovereignty propositions. All you lot keep talking about is anodyne abstract nouns, or a load of scenarios which, as far as anyone could guess what they really mean, are simply impossible.


The EU is far, far from centralised. It is a loose federation with all sorts of conflicting interests and behaviours. I don't particularly like the EU but then again I don't particularly like Ryanair but both do what I would expect to be done so they're OK as a practical choices. If something better comes along, please let us anti-Brexiteers know and we can take advantage. Supporting the EU doesn't imply some ideological admiration. The UK tried for a long time to get in. We were desperate. Nobody has explained why now we suddenly cannot benefit from membership in the same way.


You're the ones with ideological beliefs that defy reason. We're the ones trying to be practical.

[Old Greg]

So you are ok with slavery then?

The argument is thus.

Everyone is free to chose a career.

Therefore everyone is free not to chose a career in healthcare

Therefore if there are no people working in healthcare and you believe healthcare is a human right the therefore some people must be forced into slavery to work in healthcare.

The actual larger argument is you cannot have a basic human right which requires the effort of others.

It is a silly sixth form debating society argument. It would indeed become a conundrum if nobody chooses a career in healthcare. Give me a shout when that happens.

Presumably you don't believe you have a right to protection from murderers because you might have to enslave people into law enforcement.

[meridian]

So you are ok with slavery then?

The argument is thus.

Everyone is free to chose a career.

Therefore everyone is free not to chose a career in healthcare

Therefore if there are no people working in healthcare and you believe healthcare is a human right the therefore some people must be forced into slavery to work in healthcare.

The actual larger argument is you cannot have a basic human right which requires the effort of others.

You do understand the difference between slavery and a career, don't you? I.e. the basic premise that slavery is both forced and unpaid? Does your understanding of economics stretch to market forces, where if there is not enough demand being filled then salaries will rise to a point where people will choose that career?

Or how about your understanding of philosophy, where it is perfectly acceptable to believe in something (basic healthcare) while also understanding that this might not always be possible?

[original PM]

If it isn't, what's your plan for babies born needing renal dialysis?

So you are ok with slavery then?

The argument is thus.

Everyone is free to chose a career.

Therefore everyone is free not to chose a career in healthcare

Therefore if there are no people working in healthcare and you believe healthcare is a human right the therefore some people must be forced into slavery to work in healthcare.

The actual larger argument is you cannot have a basic human right which requires the effort of others.

[Whorty]

Ah now I understand.

I never wanted or expected anything personally from the EU.

I never want or expect anything personally from anyone.

I guess you believe that free healthcare is a basic human right.

Yes, absolutely. Or do you think only those who are affluent enough to pay for life saving medication should get it and that those too poor should be left to die?

As an aside I live in South Africa a few years back. Their health service is based on being able to afford it. If you're knocked over or in a car crash, and an ambulance rocks up they ask to see your insurance first - if you don't have any the private ambulances will just move on and leave you. Only about 15% of South Africans can afford private medical insurance, the rest are left to the grossly underfunded state system. This results in a much higher mortality rate for the 85% compared to the 15% ...... is this what you want to see in the UK too? Do you not think the £350m dividend from brexit per week should be used to fund the NHS then?

[Old Greg]

Ah now I understand.

I never wanted or expected anything personally from the EU.

I never want or expect anything personally from anyone.

I guess you believe that free healthcare is a basic human right.

If it isn't, what's your plan for babies born needing renal dialysis?

[original PM]

It's not difficult to change at all. The UK is changing. You need to accept that, instead of complaining that the EU isn't giving you what you want.

Ah now I understand.

I never wanted or expected anything personally from the EU.

I never want or expect anything personally from anyone.

I guess you believe that free healthcare is a basic human right.

[Old Greg]

I voted out because I wanted things to change - thus I have minimal resistance to change.

You want to stay in the EU - primarily it seems because you feel you may be hit in the pocket and this is what I struggle with - you seem to be more than happy to do exactly what you are told, to believe exactly what you are told to believe and to think what you are told to think - so long as you are told your money is safe.

I am not looking for special treatment but I am expecting to live in a world where adults make the right decisions based on what is best for all involved not on what is going to feather their nest.

Naive I know, but while people like you cling to the sort of people who do this thinking it will give you security, it will be difficult to change.

Is one of the changes you would like to see the near elimination of manufacturing in the British economy and for jobs to be mainly in industries such as design and marketing?