Reply to: Article 127

[Cirrus]

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No peace for the wicked...

[northernladyuk]

So in the spirit of summarising:

1. There is no referendum mandate for leaving the EEA.
2. Cameron's leaflet describes the compromises involved in staying in the Single Market after leaving the EU, but does not state or suggest that the UK will leave the Single Market after leaving the EU.
3. The official Leave Campaign website clearly states that after a Leave vote, the UK will remain in the existing 'European free trade zone from Iceland to the Russian border.

[WTFH]

I think we could probably get by without German cars, but Middle England will properly die on its arse if we can't have German kitchen appliances...

You’ll have to rip my Miele washing machine & tumble drier out of my cold, dead hands.

(But you’re not taking Henry. He’s British, cheap, and works better than that foreign Dyson sucker)

[The_Equalizer]

This one you mean

Thank you. Nothing like http:// at the end of a URL!

[NigelJK]

This one you mean

[The_Equalizer]

UKIP has a contingency plan.

Speaking of such supposed things, I've just had a read about AfD in Germany:

German election marks unprecedented political shift - BBC

Why has Scooter or Blaster not mentioned this? Sounds a right hoot.

[northernladyuk]

I think we could probably get by without German cars, but Middle England will properly die on its arse if we can't have German kitchen appliances...

UKIP has a contingency plan.

[Mordac]

First thought was that the EU would not allow it ever, then I thought well not for the small fry, but if it were to happen it would probably be something like a trade deal to allow Germany to continue selling its cars to us.

I think we could probably get by without German cars, but Middle England will properly die on its arse if we can't have German kitchen appliances...

[FrontEnder]

In terms of what this government has a mandate for off the back of the referendum, it's irrelevant what the leave campaign said about it. They are/were not a political party holding office and are/were not in any position to deliver what they said.

They have a mandate for what was on the ballot paper - leaving or staying in the EU. Now there are some grey areas about what that means but single market membership isn't. You can be outside of the EU and in the single market.

This all just underlines what a complete **** up this is from start to finish and I say that as someone who has wanted our membership of the EU to end since Gordon Brown signed the Lisbon treaty.

[northernladyuk]

No problem ... I've take the liberty of adding in Bold text when the Single market is mentioned on the leaflet.

So in the first part of the letter he talks about single market, why do that if the referendum isn't about leaving the Single market?

"The EU’s Single Market has over 500 million customers and an economy over five times bigger than the UK’s.
The Single Market makes it easier and cheaper for UK companies to sell their products outside the UK, creating jobs as a result.
Being inside the EU also makes it more attractive for companies to invest in the UK, meaning more jobs.
Over the last decade, foreign companies have invested £540 billion in the UK, equivalent to £148 million every day."

Or even this statement ... And how could the UK lose access to the Single Market? Could it be the subject of the letter that gives a clue?

"Losing our full access to the EU’s Single Market would make exporting to Europe harder and increase costs."

Pretty strong pointer here ...

"No other country has managed to secure significant access to the
Single Market, without having to:
• follow EU rules over which they have no real say
• pay into the EU
• accept EU citizens living and working in their country"


"A more limited trade deal with the EU would give the UK less access to the Single Market than we have now –
including for services, which make up almost 80% of the UK economy. For example,
Canada’s deal with the EU will give limited access for services, it has so far been seven years in the making and is still not in force."

"Some argue that leaving the EU would give us more freedom to limit immigration.
But in return for the economic benefits of access to the EU’s Single Market, non-EU
countries – such as Norway – have had to accept the right of all EU citizens to live and work in their country"

In the section on "The Benefits of EU membership" i.e if you vote to remain ...

"The UK will keep full access to the Single Market, with a say on its
rules. For every £1 paid in tax, a little over 1p goes to the EU. The Government judges
that what the UK gets back in opportunities, job creation and economic security from
EU membership far outweighs the cost."

Now, having read the leaflet again, it is crystal clear to me that the UK will be leaving the Single Market. What part of this could you not understand?

It doesn't say or imply the UK will leave the Single Market. I'll give it a go at explaining.

"The EU’s Single Market has over 500 million customers and an economy over five times bigger than the UK’s.
The Single Market makes it easier and cheaper for UK companies to sell their products outside the UK, creating jobs as a result.
Being inside the EU also makes it more attractive for companies to invest in the UK, meaning more jobs.
Over the last decade, foreign companies have invested £540 billion in the UK, equivalent to £148 million every day."

The above is a statement of the status quo with an associated opinion about the benefits of the status quo. It is not a statement about what will happen after a Leave vote.

Losing our full access to the EU’s Single Market would make exporting to Europe harder and increase costs

The above statement is an opinion of what would happen if the UK left the Single Market, not a statement of what would happen if the UK left the EU. As we all know, and as is stated below, the two are not the same.

"No other country has managed to secure significant access to the
Single Market, without having to:
• follow EU rules over which they have no real say
• pay into the EU
• accept EU citizens living and working in their country"

The above statement is a clear indication that the UK can stay in the Single Market as an 'other' country. It describes the compromises that would need to be made.

A more limited trade deal with the EU would give the UK less access to the Single Market than we have now –
including for services, which make up almost 80% of the UK economy. For example,
Canada’s deal with the EU will give limited access for services, it has so far been seven years in the making and is still not in force

The above statement describes a trade deal outside of the Single Market if the UK is not prepared to make the compromises to remain inside the Single Market.

Some argue that leaving the EU would give us more freedom to limit immigration.
But in return for the economic benefits of access to the EU’s Single Market, non-EU
countries – such as Norway – have had to accept the right of all EU citizens to live and work in their country.

The above statement is another description of the compromises that would have to be made to remain in the Single Market.

The UK will keep full access to the Single Market, with a say on its
rules. For every £1 paid in tax, a little over 1p goes to the EU. The Government judges
that what the UK gets back in opportunities, job creation and economic security from
EU membership far outweighs the cost.

The above is a statement about the continuation of the status quo, following a Remain vote, not a description of the consequences of a Leave vote.


So, how is it clear from this that the UK would leave the Single Market on leaving the EU. It is neither stated nor implied.

[Antman]

As I say we're the beta testers so why not suggest it, there's plenty out there who are not interested in an EU wide trade deal for widgets when all they deal in is cucumbers?

First thought was that the EU would not allow it ever, then I thought well not for the small fry, but if it were to happen it would probably be something like a trade deal to allow Germany to continue selling its cars to us.

[NigelJK]

No way individual countries inside the EU can have their own trade deals I'd have thought?

As I say we're the beta testers so why not suggest it, there's plenty out there who are not interested in an EU wide trade deal for widgets when all they deal in is cucumbers?

[Stevie Wonder Boy]

You have got yourself into a tizzy, haven't you?

Do you mean this text from the leaflet?



If so, can you explain why this is clear that the UK will leave the single market after a Leave note. If you mean other text, perhaps you would be kind enough to post it.

No problem ... I've take the liberty of adding in Bold text when the Single market is mentioned on the leaflet.

So in the first part of the letter he talks about single market, why do that if the referendum isn't about leaving the Single market?

"The EU’s Single Market has over 500 million customers and an economy over five times bigger than the UK’s.
The Single Market makes it easier and cheaper for UK companies to sell their products outside the UK, creating jobs as a result.
Being inside the EU also makes it more attractive for companies to invest in the UK, meaning more jobs.
Over the last decade, foreign companies have invested £540 billion in the UK, equivalent to £148 million every day."

Or even this statement ... And how could the UK lose access to the Single Market? Could it be the subject of the letter that gives a clue?

"Losing our full access to the EU’s Single Market would make exporting to Europe harder and increase costs."

Pretty strong pointer here ...

"No other country has managed to secure significant access to the
Single Market, without having to:
• follow EU rules over which they have no real say
• pay into the EU
• accept EU citizens living and working in their country"


"A more limited trade deal with the EU would give the UK less access to the Single Market than we have now –
including for services, which make up almost 80% of the UK economy. For example,
Canada’s deal with the EU will give limited access for services, it has so far been seven years in the making and is still not in force."

"Some argue that leaving the EU would give us more freedom to limit immigration.
But in return for the economic benefits of access to the EU’s Single Market, non-EU
countries – such as Norway – have had to accept the right of all EU citizens to live and work in their country"

In the section on "The Benefits of EU membership" i.e if you vote to remain ...

"The UK will keep full access to the Single Market, with a say on its
rules. For every £1 paid in tax, a little over 1p goes to the EU. The Government judges
that what the UK gets back in opportunities, job creation and economic security from
EU membership far outweighs the cost."

Now, having read the leaflet again, it is crystal clear to me that the UK will be leaving the Single Market. What part of this could you not understand?

[northernladyuk]

You mean like how they said about the £350million for the NHS?

(For months it was argued on here that it was never promised, claimed, written on the side of a bus, etc, and then bumbling Boris brings it back to life in the Telegraph last weekend, only to be shot down by unelected mathematicians)

The massive lie is that there was ever £350 million per week. It is clear as day on the official Leave Campaign website.

Why Vote Leave - Vote Leave

[WTFH]

No way individual countries inside the EU can have their own trade deals I'd have thought?

No they can’t. According to the Leave group, they can’t make deals, they can’t have their own border security, they can’t make their own laws and they aren’t allowed to vote for MEPs.

Didn’t you get the memo?