I'm under IR 35 investigation.

[basshead]

The hmrc have been hounding me since January with the usual opening letter regarding a compliance check. Since then it's gone through relating to them the reasons why it is considered I fall outside IR 35, through to answering thirty odd questions, to answering three questions from within those thirty, to sending invoices and proof of indemnity and on and on. Now they are contacting the end client to try to arrange a meeting with them. Both of these clients I worked for for less than six months each. They had already asked me to meet them but my accountant said not to do it. I do have insurance against investigation, but it is a very stressful situation.

Having just been through a 10 month similar 'Business records check' which then led on to the 'Have you considered IR35?' type questions I found stressful as well - I found myself getting very angry with the whole situation, which in hindsight was pointless and counter-productive. HMRC aren't concerned about your value to any industry and seem to be mostly idiots with targets lately. 30-odd questions is very familiar, I'm sure they copy and paste around the same questions. How am I sure? Well, after refusing the face to face at which they wanted to pose me such questions, what came through by letter instead seemed to have been created through a huge search and replace operation and not proof-reading the result, and contained such gems as:

Who was you answerable to?
Was you subject to the Organisations disciplinary and attendance procedures?

I am in the PCG and have PCGPlus and so Abbey Tax handled the whole thing, but you still need to answer the questions they ask, your advisers can only help to shape the responses in the most appropriate way. Mine came to an end after they read my answers to the 30-odd questions and assessed 3 years of contracts as outside IR35. None of the end clients were contacted in the end.

I work in IT so different industry, but to me, your working practices sound outside of IR35. How are your contracts with respect IR35?

[vetran]

keep your chin up, let the experts do their thing, good luck!

[Martley]

Genuine fixed price work is a huge pointer to being outside IR35, so if this is the case, your chances of winning are very good.

However, it may take a lot of pain and hassle from HMRC before they finally concede that point. Because IR35 is by it's very nature subjective, even if you know you are slam dunk outside IR35, you still have to be prepared to prove that to HMRC, which can still require some effort.

Thank you very much. Being in a 'caring' profession I'm not used to people like the HMRC. They seem like a dog with a bone and won't let go. I was told that they are targeting the public sector with these new IR 35 teams.

[Martley]

Although I am a social worker I am not an ISW and others on here are far more expert on IR35. The only things I would say are 1) I wouldnt try to argue that you should be outside IR35 because otherwise the system would collapse, supply and demand etc, it is irrelevant and will annoy them as special pleading and 2) make sure they (or your representatives) are aware that in SW the term ' supervision' is used in the psychoanalytical sense, not in the usual business sense.

Good luck, it is a phenomenally difficult job that you do.

Thank you I appreciate your advice. I will heed what you say.

[centurian]

In my private work it is all single pieces of assessment which have a fixes fee of say £1700 to £2000. Each one takes up to eight weeks to complete and can take up to fifty hours to complete.

Genuine fixed price work is a huge pointer to being outside IR35, so if this is the case, your chances of winning are very good.

However, it may take a lot of pain and hassle from HMRC before they finally concede that point. Because IR35 is by it's very nature subjective, even if you know you are slam dunk outside IR35, you still have to be prepared to prove that to HMRC, which can still require some effort.

[socialworker]

Although I am a social worker I am not an ISW and others on here are far more expert on IR35. The only things I would say are 1) I wouldnt try to argue that you should be outside IR35 because otherwise the system would collapse, supply and demand etc, it is irrelevant and will annoy them as special pleading and 2) make sure they (or your representatives) are aware that in SW the term ' supervision' is used in the psychoanalytical sense, not in the usual business sense.

Good luck, it is a phenomenally difficult job that you do.

[malvolio]

I answered the initial questions myself, then passed the case over to (PCG funded) qdos. I won. This was in the early days though.

Still applies now; although they no longer use QDOS the process is the same. HMRC tends to back down when faced with professional representation: can't imagine why...

But standing advice from PCG is as soon as the brown envelope arrives, call the office, register your case and stand well back.

[Archangel]

If you've answered HMRC's questions it's possibly now too late. Every case that's been lost starts with the contractor doing it themselves rather than let the insurer handle it from day 1.

So talk to the insurers and see where to go next. Don't do anything else.

I answered the initial questions myself, then passed the case over to (PCG funded) qdos. I won. This was in the early days though.

[Martley]

If you've answered HMRC's questions it's possibly now too late. Every case that's been lost starts with the contractor doing it themselves rather than let the insurer handle it from day 1.

So talk to the insurers and see where to go next. Don't do anything else.

Sorry of it was unclear but I've never dealt with it myself or had any direct dealing with the HMRC. It's been dealt with via my accountant and insurer from day one.

[malvolio]

If you've answered HMRC's questions it's possibly now too late. Every case that's been lost starts with the contractor doing it themselves rather than let the insurer handle it from day 1.

So talk to the insurers and see where to go next. Don't do anything else.

[craig1]

I presume you have been in contact with the insurance company. What do they say you need to do?
It is probably right to refuse to meet with them.

This.

Invoke insurance, sit back and do as the insurer's legal team tell you. No point paying for insurance and not enjoying its benefits when you can.

[NotAllThere]

Hello, firstly I know this is an IT contractor site but I can't find anywhere else that appears suitable to post, so thanks for letting me on here.

It's mainly IT contractors, but we're certainly not exclusive to that group.

On the face of it you sound outside of IR35.

[Martley]

I presume you have been in contact with the insurance company. What do they say you need to do?
It is probably right to refuse to meet with them.

Hello, firstly I know this is an IT contractor site but I can't find anywhere else that appears suitable to post, so thanks for letting me on here.

Yes my accountant has advised me via the insurers not to meet with them at all. The fact that this situation has been going on for nine months is very stressful. I can't imagine that the end client will do anything more than refer the HMRC back to the intermediary agency. I know what the HMRC's angle on this is. I think they will try to imply that I was in disguised employment. I am aware that there has been an increase in these investigations within the public sector as a whole.

[KentPhilip]

I presume you have been in contact with the insurance company. What do they say you need to do?
It is probably right to refuse to meet with them.

[Martley]

I've been an independent social worker since 2006 undertaking a variety of local authority and private sector contracts. I have been qualified since 2001 and always worked on the front line of child protection which is the hardest for local authorities to fill due to the high stress levels and high a academic demands. To this end local authorities will use contractors on short term assignments to meet demand to complete child protection and care proceedings work. Usually my contracts last up to around six months at at time. On site I have no allocated desk, no free training opportunities and have to pay for anything they might offer, no sick pay, no holiday pay, counselling of planned return to work if off for stress. In other words I am not part and parcel of the organisation and there is no mutuality of obligation whatsoever. I am hired and fired at will and rise and fall on my own ability. Yes I have to use the local authorities computer system due to confidentiality and also have some supervision as is always the case in professional social work. But the control is minimal and they can't move me from job to job. If the contract is extended it is by agreement after an initial set period. I have never been anywhere for years on end and always been treated as separate from the organisation and never been considered an employee. There is also the opportunity to increase my earnings by negotiating some extra work on a fixes price fee. The rest of the work is an hourly rate but mostly all work must be done within the agreed hours or I have to do any extra work regardless and not charge extra.

In my private work it is all single pieces of assessment which have a fixes fee of say £1700 to £2000. Each one takes up to eight weeks to complete and can take up to fifty hours to complete.

I have the intermediary agency who secures my work and then take a percentage themselves. The contract specifics are completed by them.

The hmrc have been hounding me since January with the usual opening letter regarding a compliance check. Since then it's gone through relating to them the reasons why it is considered I fall outside IR 35, through to answering thirty odd questions, to answering three questions from within those thirty, to sending invoices and proof of indemnity and on and on. Now they are contacting the end client to try to arrange a meeting with them. Both of these clients I worked for for less than six months each. They had already asked me to meet them but my accountant said not to do it. I do have insurance against investigation, but it is a very stressful situation. I'm trying to work in a very stressful job environment and the hmrc seem to have no perception of why workers like me are essential to authorities meeting their statutory obligations. Without us filling he demand on short term contracts the system would collapse.

When looking at the business entity tests there is no way I could fulfil every one of them totally, but I still think I am outside IR 35. Supply and demand for highly skilled social workers like myself makes me feel that I should be able to operate as I do outside IR 35.