Reply to: Charging for IR35 contract reviews

[cojak]

We aren't saying don't review contracts.

I just wouldn't use you, is all I'm saying.

[contractorsaccountant0704]

Our experiences

How many of you managed to change contract T&Cs after reviews?
In the last 4 years or so I found most of the contract from top agencies for top banking clients have the expected criteria of a B2B contracts and had no issues with them, however other agencies like Hays issues horrid contracts, they don't even want you to invoice them, just pay weekly as if you are a temp, at the time I rejected their contract but only because they pissed me off and I got something else. Not sure if many managed to change the T&Cs its usually take it or leave it.

As accountants who are affiliated to the professional contractors group, we received initial training and then annual retraining on IR35 issues. Others have correctly suggested that lawyers do "law" and accountants do "accounts". I agree to that but having had the correct training, I see no reason why I should not advise contractor clients to review their contracts both before and during the life of their contract. Advice is what I do, and I am mindful of the risks and would certainly take great care not to overstep the boundaries of my knowledge and expertise.

I have reviewed Hays contracts - they are awful! I have also helped another client in the recruitment industry to change a fairly useless contract for a large recruitment company - both to her own and , ultimately their , advantage. Its not prefect , but guess what - I didn't charge her any extra for my time .

[philip@wellwoodhoyle]

We'll do an informal review of the contract and working relationship and discuss with the client, but we still recommend that they get it reviewed properly by the experts and suggest QDOS who do it for under £100 which is a bargain for a specialist review.

[TheFaQQer]

How many of you managed to change contract T&Cs after reviews?

Almost every time I've needed it changed, they have done. The only one which springs to mind which refused was I wanted (on Qdos initial advice) reciprocal notice period, but IBM refused to allow the agency to change it.

I've had big arguments with agencies about some clauses (down to saying "are you going to ring the client and tell them I won't be in on Monday, or shall I?") but most will eventually give in.

[jamesbrown]

WSES.

I look to my accountant to guide me through my accounts and tax liabilities.

I look to contract specialists to guide me though legal contractual due diligence.

This is perfectly fine and sensible (and I do it myself), but a couple of points: 1) it doesn't hurt to have two opinions, one of those being QDOS or similar. You'll find that professional opinions do vary on specific clauses and their significance, even if the fundamental aspects are agreed, and it's educational to see these disagreements; and 2) there are many contractors, perhaps most, that aren't as diligent as the average poster in this subforum. For them, it may be the difference between a free review or no review. So, I can understand why accountants offer this service for free or a small fee.

[SandyD]

Hays contracts are notoriously bad for IR35. More here.

If you kickup a fuss you can get some contract wording changed.

qh

Thanks

[quackhandle]

How many of you managed to change contract T&Cs after reviews?
In the last 4 years or so I found most of the contract from top agencies for top banking clients have the expected criteria of a B2B contracts and had no issues with them, however other agencies like Hays issues horrid contracts, they don't even want you to invoice them, just pay weekly as if you are a temp, at the time I rejected their contract but only because they pissed me off and I got something else. Not sure if many managed to change the T&Cs its usually take it or leave it.

Hays contracts are notoriously bad for IR35. More here.

If you kickup a fuss you can get some contract wording changed.

qh

[SandyD]

How many of you managed to change contract T&Cs after reviews?
In the last 4 years or so I found most of the contract from top agencies for top banking clients have the expected criteria of a B2B contracts and had no issues with them, however other agencies like Hays issues horrid contracts, they don't even want you to invoice them, just pay weekly as if you are a temp, at the time I rejected their contract but only because they pissed me off and I got something else. Not sure if many managed to change the T&Cs its usually take it or leave it.

[Jessica@WhiteFieldTax]

We do contract reviews, but its chargeable, £200 + vat. We used to do it as a free offering, but found people were using that service instead of their own due diligence.

On the lawyer v accountant issue, I always make it clear we are looking at IR35 issues not contract law, and advise clients to take legal advice on contract issues which are wider than IR35. I feel more than competent to review a contract, but in fact draw the line at actually working cases with HMRC - that I would prefer to see with a specialist.

I know others views will vary - there are, of course, no definitive answers.

[cojak]

Nothing to do with bad experiences it's to do with different professionals having different specialist skills.

So while I expect an accountant to understand the basics of IR35 and parts of contract law I don't expect them to understand the ins and outs of it.

In otherwords I go to the right expert for the correct right job.

WSES.

I look to my accountant to guide me through my accounts and tax liabilities.

I look to contract specialists to guide me though legal contractual due diligence.

[TheFaQQer]

Funnily enough I've just paid for an IR35 review.

From a contract specialist. I wouldn't trust an accountant to do this for me, even if they didn't charge.

Exactly this. My accountant does it for free, yet I've never asked them to do it for me. I get freebies from Qdos with my insurance policy, but if not I'd pay them to do it.

I wouldn't expect Qdos to do my accounts, so why trust my accountant to do a lawyers job?

[stek]

Ok

Am I right in thinking that you have had a bad experience?
Are you a contract specialist yourself or are you saying you would only get a review from one.
if so, are the 2 ( accountant and contract specialist ) mutually exclusive?

I feel it's a Lawyers' job, preferably one who specialises in Contract Law.

Not being disrespectful but if an Accountant can appraise a contract, so can I, especially since I have a Law Degree and I know IR35 reasonably well and I know my own working practices. I don't really feel Legal and Accounting to be the same field, so why use an Accountant?

Personally, I'd appreciate a legal bod checking my opinion, but not a Accountant to be honest.

[SueEllen]

Ok

Am I right in thinking that you have had a bad experience?
Are you a contract specialist yourself or are you saying you would only get a review from one.
if so, are the 2 ( accountant and contract specialist ) mutually exclusive?

Nothing to do with bad experiences it's to do with different professionals having different specialist skills.

So while I expect an accountant to understand the basics of IR35 and parts of contract law I don't expect them to understand the ins and outs of it.

In otherwords I go to the right expert for the correct right job.

[contractorsaccountant0704]

Trust

Funnily enough I've just paid for an IR35 review.

From a contract specialist. I wouldn't trust an accountant to do this for me, even if they didn't charge.

Ok

Am I right in thinking that you have had a bad experience?
Are you a contract specialist yourself or are you saying you would only get a review from one.
if so, are the 2 ( accountant and contract specialist ) mutually exclusive?

[Clare@InTouch]

Many accountants include reviews for free these days, we do and so do many others (some depend on what "package" you choose with the firm though).

As Cojak says though, many people are happy to pay someone like Qdos or Bauer & Cotterill.