Reply to: Extra Hours

[northernladuk]

I'm pretty sure things like the Working Time Directive and National Minimum Wage don't apply to most of us because we are company directors with no contract of employment but I don't have a reference for that...

Just PC not being able to let go of permie land....

[Wanderer]

Yeh, if we're talking about working time directive you can opt out if you like anyway, can't you?

I'm pretty sure things like the Working Time Directive and National Minimum Wage don't apply to most of us because we are company directors with no contract of employment but I don't have a reference for that...

[Wanderer]

And 7 days * 8 hours a day is still 4 hours less billing than the 60 hours they wish him to work.

Ahhh, I see now. So I'll work 4x12 hour days and slope off "early" with an 8 hour day on Friday = 56 hours worked, I bill for 7 days @ 8 hours per day. Sorted.

Why do we all try to make things so much more complicated than they have to be?

[northernladuk]

Well presumably he has a choice. The contract terms can't be unilaterally changed. If a ClientCo came to me (or I suspect anyone else here) and said, "Right, you're now working 12 hour days." I suspect the answer would be "Feck right off."

If, as I suspect, the ClientCo said, "We're in a right pickle here. We need people to work 12 hour days, and we'll pay you a bit extra." That's a request, not a demand so doesn't fall foul of D+C as far as I can see?

Ok well I read in to it he didn't. It was dictated by the company. Only the OP will know so one or other of our answers will suit him depending on the reality of the situation.

[b0redom]

Were you being directed to do those hours? If the OP says no I am doing 8 hours stuff you what will the client do in his situation? If the contract has changed and now HAS to do 12 hours that is clear D&C and a clear change in contract. Putting the extra hours in cause something has gone tits up is professional, being told to do so with no choice from client is D&C unless you change the contract.

Well presumably he has a choice. The contract terms can't be unilaterally changed. If a ClientCo came to me (or I suspect anyone else here) and said, "Right, you're now working 12 hour days." I suspect the answer would be "Feck right off."

If, as I suspect, the ClientCo said, "We're in a right pickle here. We need people to work 12 hour days, and we'll pay you a bit extra." That's a request, not a demand so doesn't fall foul of D+C as far as I can see?

[eek]

Why not?

because

Client Co is in the poop. Testing program has been extended so all testers will move from 8 hour days to 12 hour days, 5 days a week.

And 7 days * 8 hours a day is still 4 hours less billing than the 60 hours they wish him to work.

[b0redom]

That is exactly right but realistically he isn't going to opt out of his own LTD as he doesn't need regulations to cover himself against unfair practices from his employer does he? This regulation is to protect workers from unfair demands and help companies cover themselves if there is a dispute. Kinda of irrelevant for our situation.

True, but the point is that you can work as many hours / week as you like. There's no cap at 40, 60 etc that I'm aware of.

[northernladuk]

Are you sure about this? I've done extra hours previously, when a release went hideously wrong for example. My stance was that ClientCo are on a day rate. MyCo's standard day is 8 hours. If you want someone for 12 hours, that's 1.5 days, so I just bill for 1.5 days. ClientCo are happy (well they'd be happier if I didn't need to have worked the hours) and MyCo gets a bit more wonga in the bank.

I'm not sure there's an IR35 pointer there?

Were you being directed to do those hours? If the OP says no I am doing 8 hours stuff you what will the client do in his situation? If the contract has changed and now HAS to do 12 hours that is clear D&C and a clear change in contract. Putting the extra hours in cause something has gone tits up is professional, being told to do so with no choice from client is D&C unless you change the contract.

[northernladuk]

Erm he is a permie no? He's employed by his Ltd, and can opt out of the regs with his Ltd. The Ltd has a contract with clientco and the regs don't apply to B2B contracts.

That is exactly right but realistically he isn't going to opt out of his own LTD as he doesn't need regulations to cover himself against unfair practices from his employer does he? This regulation is to protect workers from unfair demands and help companies cover themselves if there is a dispute. Kinda of irrelevant for our situation.

[b0redom]

No but being asked to do those hours is, particularly if he has professional day or 8 hours in his contract. This is a change in contractual hours, it gets documented and agreed or you fall straight in to D&C. Couldn't be any clearer to me. Same as doing a bit of extra work on request etc.

If the terms of the contract changes then so must the contract. I can't see why they wouldn't change the paperwork. If they wouldn't I would be concerned they don't see me as business which has all sorts of other ramifications. Maybe they don't have to change the whole thing, ad an extra schedule documenting the change or something like that. Either way, I wouldn't be taking that extra work on without the changes.

Are you sure about this? I've done extra hours previously, when a release went hideously wrong for example. My stance was that ClientCo are on a day rate. MyCo's standard day is 8 hours. If you want someone for 12 hours, that's 1.5 days, so I just bill for 1.5 days. ClientCo are happy (well they'd be happier if I didn't need to have worked the hours) and MyCo gets a bit more wonga in the bank.

I'm not sure there's an IR35 pointer there?

[b0redom]

If he was a permie he could... but he isn't.....

Erm he is a permie no? He's employed by his Ltd, and can opt out of the regs with his Ltd. The Ltd has a contract with clientco and the regs don't apply to B2B contracts.

[northernladuk]

Yeh, if we're talking about working time directive you can opt out if you like anyway, can't you?

If he was a permie he could... but he isn't.....

[psychocandy]

Yeh, if we're talking about working time directive you can opt out if you like anyway, can't you?

[Wanderer]

You can't legally bill for 60 hours a week even if you work 7 8 hours days a week.

Why not?

[psychocandy]

Could be worse they could be spouting the professional working day line and expecting 12 hours a day for nothing extra....