Reply to: IR35 logging daily events that prove you are outside

[EMEAfixer]

To be totally honest with you sound a right dick inthat conversation. Something you have done has obviously wound him up to ring you in that state. I don't think this is a good example of handling the situation at all.

What would a recording of that call prove? Sounds more like a case that you are inside and expected to be managed by the client. The fact that you refuse doesn't help you case.

Sounds like you are totally inside to me and I haven't even bothered calling your client yet. Hope your insurances are up to date.

LOL - we don't even need trolls here to get a reaction.
So,...., if you contracted a PR agency handling multiple clients to write a press release for you, would you expect them to sit at your table until it is done? "Please sir, can I go to the toilet sir? Please? Sir?"

[northernladuk]

A blustery GM at a ClientCo phoned me recently:

GM: You are not in the office, where are you?
Me: I am at my office.
GM: That's not acceptable - I want you in our office every day from 9 till 5
Me: I am sorry, I have other commitments, I won't be able to do that.
GM: (shouting) No, I don't accept this - you have to be here in the office every day.
Me: Well our contract says I decide when and where I work. No one else at your office is working on the same thing, so there is no extra benefit if I work from there.
GM: (shouting) This is disgraceful - I have never heard anything like that before. The employer decides where the employee works, not the other way around!
Me: That is exactly the point - I am not your employee, you are not my employer... But don't worry, I will visit occasionally to give updates.
GM: (shouting) No! I don't accept this attitude
Me: I am sorry, but you run your business how you want to, and I run my business how I decide is best. We have agreed a contract for me to deliver XYZ to you. I will deliver it as agreed and send you my invoice. If you don't agree that my delivery meets the specification then you can contest the invoice. Apart from that, I don't tell you how to run your business, and I don't expect you to tell me how to run mine. I will give you the courtesy of sending you weekly status updates, but I decide when where and how the work is done.
GM: click - hung up

I must admit, I was a bit worried about whether my intermediate invoice the following week would be paid, but it went through with no problem.


The permies at that place are all terrorised and micromanaged. The GM doesn't believe anyone is working unless he can actually see them. If he ever gets interviewed by HMRC he would probably mess me up by claiming all kinds of D&C over me. So, I am saving various emails etc where I show the opposite - I just wish I had made an audio recording of that call.

To be totally honest with you sound a right dick inthat conversation. Something you have done has obviously wound him up to ring you in that state. I don't think this is a good example of handling the situation at all.

What would a recording of that call prove? Sounds more like a case that you are inside and expected to be managed by the client. The fact that you refuse doesn't help you case.

Sounds like you are totally inside to me and I haven't even bothered calling your client yet. Hope your insurances are up to date.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

I was afraid someone would say that. It's an important philosophical distinction, since how much evidence would I need to supply I wonder? In the extreme case of the only evidence being a contract, would they then be able to "prove" a contractor was inside IR35 since he/she had no proof of actual day-to-day behaviour? After all, the contract can say one thing, whilst the contractor does another, so HMRC might just disregard the contract and assume guilt if the burden of proof is on the contractor.

If past behaviour is anything to go by HMR&C will happily interview previous clients and members of their staff to gain evidence

[EMEAfixer]

wish I had recorded that one

A blustery GM at a ClientCo phoned me recently:

GM: You are not in the office, where are you?
Me: I am at my office.
GM: That's not acceptable - I want you in our office every day from 9 till 5
Me: I am sorry, I have other commitments, I won't be able to do that.
GM: (shouting) No, I don't accept this - you have to be here in the office every day.
Me: Well our contract says I decide when and where I work. No one else at your office is working on the same thing, so there is no extra benefit if I work from there.
GM: (shouting) This is disgraceful - I have never heard anything like that before. The employer decides where the employee works, not the other way around!
Me: That is exactly the point - I am not your employee, you are not my employer... But don't worry, I will visit occasionally to give updates.
GM: (shouting) No! I don't accept this attitude
Me: I am sorry, but you run your business how you want to, and I run my business how I decide is best. We have agreed a contract for me to deliver XYZ to you. I will deliver it as agreed and send you my invoice. If you don't agree that my delivery meets the specification then you can contest the invoice. Apart from that, I don't tell you how to run your business, and I don't expect you to tell me how to run mine. I will give you the courtesy of sending you weekly status updates, but I decide when where and how the work is done.
GM: click - hung up

I must admit, I was a bit worried about whether my intermediate invoice the following week would be paid, but it went through with no problem.


The permies at that place are all terrorised and micromanaged. The GM doesn't believe anyone is working unless he can actually see them. If he ever gets interviewed by HMRC he would probably mess me up by claiming all kinds of D&C over me. So, I am saving various emails etc where I show the opposite - I just wish I had made an audio recording of that call.

[Rabotnik]

Actually since the changes to the SA form and the introduction of the business entity tests the onus is on you to prove that you are outside

I was afraid someone would say that. It's an important philosophical distinction, since how much evidence would I need to supply I wonder? In the extreme case of the only evidence being a contract, would they then be able to "prove" a contractor was inside IR35 since he/she had no proof of actual day-to-day behaviour? After all, the contract can say one thing, whilst the contractor does another, so HMRC might just disregard the contract and assume guilt if the burden of proof is on the contractor.

[LisaContractorUmbrella]

Hehe, yeah I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, the onus is on them to prove I'm inside, and if all they have is my contract I can say whatever I want about what I did here.

I have no idea what the agency-client contract says though. I'm sure that topic has been done to death on here, so a search is in order.

Actually since the changes to the SA form and the introduction of the business entity tests the onus is on you to prove that you are outside

[Rabotnik]

Oddly enough we very rarely discuss agency to client contracts. I don't really see what basis that has on your situation. Their contract surely will be to provide an agency service so will have no bearing on the actual work being done by the contractor?

In this article the contractor got done for IR35 and one of the arguments against him was the terms in in the upper contract: IR35 defeat costs IT contractor £99,000 :: Contractor UK

From the article:
"In this ruling, Mr Hellier cited the upper contract, the agreement between the AA and DPP International Ltd, Mr Bessel's recruitment agency, as evidence of employee-style control."

[northernladuk]

Hehe, yeah I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, the onus is on them to prove I'm inside, and if all they have is my contract I can say whatever I want about what I did here.

I have no idea what the agency-client contract says though. I'm sure that topic has been done to death on here, so a search is in order.

Oddly enough we very rarely discuss agency to client contracts. I don't really see what basis that has on your situation. Their contract surely will be to provide an agency service so will have no bearing on the actual work being done by the contractor?

[Rabotnik]

On the flip side no one can corroborate what you do so can't show any D&C whatsoever so shows you are innocent surely.

Hehe, yeah I was being somewhat tongue-in-cheek, the onus is on them to prove I'm inside, and if all they have is my contract I can say whatever I want about what I did here.

I have no idea what the agency-client contract says though. I'm sure that topic has been done to death on here, so a search is in order.

[northernladuk]

On the flip side no one can corroborate what you do so can't show any D&C whatsoever so shows you are innocent surely.

[Rabotnik]

I just keep emails where I tell my manager I'm not coming in on a particular day. I was considering also putting my company website on my emails, at the moment I just have "Business Intelligence Contractor". Also, the passes here are all just grey and no-one sees them, so I don't have a contract one. I am pretty sure I'm on the card system as a contractor, but obviously I won't be able to provide proof of that later.

I wonder what would happen in an investigation if my manager has resigned from here? He is the only one who has a clue on what I'm doing here, and he wants to resign after this project is done, so if HMRC investigates in a year/2 years he will be gone. I wonder if they would just say then no-one can corroborate my defence, so I am guilty...

[Wanderer]

Basically you should journal things that highlight that you are not an employee of the company.

It's a good idea. If you get investigated and the client drops you in the tulip over things like direction and control, you can refute it by producing actual examples from the time you worked there. In court, notes made at the time or original emails will carry much more weight than people's hazy memories of how things used to be.

As for it being used against you - it would of course be foolish to give it all directly to HMRC. You would pass this on to your defence team who would sift through it and present the useful bits, quietly discarding the rest.

[malvolio]

Also we were also told once that xmas meals isnt open to contractors, they can come but they will have to pay thier own costs, is this email worth keeping ?

Actually yes, if it's in writing. It shows you are not seen as part and parcel of the client's workforce, which is a good thing.

[platforminc]

Hi Guys

I take the advice of photocopying the ID pass, as my current gig has seperate colours for permies and suppliers (contractors).

In certain meetings, we have been told we contractors are not eligible for training, I do feel its a good pointer but I'm not going to start recording my managers conversation.

Also we were also told once that xmas meals isnt open to contractors, they can come but they will have to pay thier own costs, is this email worth keeping ?

Thanks.

[Jessica@WhiteFieldTax]

If you can be bothered I don't think it does any harm to do a bit of diligence. I do keep a few particular correspondence from my client that shows clearly that I work differently to permies. I photocopy my security card at every gig when it is a different colour, keep a mail that shows my business name in email name and so on.

One word of caution about keeping a huge stash of stuff. If you don't fully understand IR35 and what/why you do it and your evidence could be used against you then you could be shooting yourself in the foot. A real business doesn't need to do this so doing too much could look you just pretending and trying too hard. You only need to submit one mail that mentions holiday or shows the client approved it thinking you were doing the right thing and you have just hung yourself.

Keep some key elements from areas that are strong flags or support your contract and forget the rest. Daily logs sound like a bad idea though.

^^ echo that. Its the sort of thing I would advise a client to do.