Contractor sites and the minimum wage

[SueEllen]

Surely agents are not responsible for the rate an employer advertises.

Agencies have a legal responsibility to only advertise roles to UK based residents that fall under the National Minimum Wage.

If PPH are advertising roles that fall outside this they should make it clear who can apply to for the roles.

[SueEllen]

Thanks, could you provide any more details regarding your solicitors comments?

I may well take your suggestion, my moral compass is twitching.

Just report them to the low paid unit.

If they then want to deal with it then they will.

[northernladuk]

To me it looks like something that is at a minimum flaunting the spirit of the NMW and questionably on the wrong side of the law itself.

You really are on a hiding to no where here. Spirit means nothing, letter of the law is what counts. I don't think it is on the wrong side of the law as I commented on before. There is also the arguement about the fact PPH are a middle man on this and not the employer so again wooly where the responsibility lies.

This is a company which strongly presents itself as a UK agency, look at their front page and press coverage. BBC, Guardian, Sunday Times, Indy, lots of red tops etc.

Now the individual listing is a comical (interesting that it had its comments removed), but a quick flick through some of the categories such as administration show just how many roles start at £4 per hour. This includes positions which are onsite only within the UK.

Surely agents are not responsible for the rate an employer advertises.

On the question of "properly self-employed", PPH don't seem to discriminate. They accept people under umbrella companies and other arrangements. Their terms appear to put some obligations on "the Freelancer" which are clearly nonsense, the employer would still be liable in many cases.

They don't discriminate, they are a middle man and probably don't care. The employer would be liable yes but PPH isn't the employer???

I would just take a breath and go concentrate on something else. The fact PPH and many other sites like this exist unchallenged would be reason enough to think a) it is legal b) it is too complicated for us to sort out. Isn't the argument here similar to ebay being responsible for peddling fake goods and nothing has happened about that.

You may have a point (I don't think so but thats another thing) but what is the point busting a bloodvessel over it?

[lee]

However a solicitor I know has recently argued that this won't work about a different website.

I suggest you contact the low pay unit (details are on Direct.gov.uk website) and give them examples of the site openly breaking the law.

Thanks, could you provide any more details regarding your solicitors comments?

I may well take your suggestion, my moral compass is twitching.

[lee]

Not all jobs there are that cheap and you can bid higher. Anyone good will be making way more.

Somewhat missing the point of a NMW, which is to protect the low skilled from exploitation and a provide a minimal standard of living.
We can all look after ourselves.

[d000hg]

Not all jobs there are that cheap and you can bid higher. Anyone good will be making way more.

[lee]

To me it looks like something that is at a minimum flaunting the spirit of the NMW and questionably on the wrong side of the law itself.

This is a company which strongly presents itself as a UK agency, look at their front page and press coverage. BBC, Guardian, Sunday Times, Indy, lots of red tops etc.

Now the individual listing is a comical (interesting that it had its comments removed), but a quick flick through some of the categories such as administration show just how many roles start at £4 per hour. This includes positions which are onsite only within the UK.

On the question of "properly self-employed", PPH don't seem to discriminate. They accept people under umbrella companies and other arrangements. Their terms appear to put some obligations on "the Freelancer" which are clearly nonsense, the employer would still be liable in many cases.

[northernladuk]

Who is not entitled to the National Minimum Wage : Directgov - Employment

So you can only do the work if:
1. You are properly self-employed i.e. you can't work under an umbrella company
2. A company director

Nothing wrong with the adverts or the site stating this. (I'm sure the site asks whether people use umbrella companies or not.)

In regards to pissing people off unfortunately some people need to be pissed off as they have too much power and can't control themselves in how they use it. The current phone hacking scandal is an example of this.

Erm. OK not quite understanding this. Your link says you are not entitled to NMW if you are Self Employed. By taking on this kind of work you are doing it as a self employed person therefore quite legal to offer and accept less than NMW? What am I missing here

<cough>The phone hacking scandal is quiet different to a website that is peddling work under the NMW to people who are willing to advertise it and to people who are willing to work for it. Seems more like a win/win than a national scandal.

[SueEllen]

if you want to piss off everyone that is happy to advertise this work and those that are happy to take it for whatever their personal reasons are. It works for a reason.

Just as a point aside I wasn't aware you were advertising for employment which is covered but instead they want a piece of work doing which in on a contract basis so not covered by minimum wage (as it isn't a wage)????

Who is not entitled to the National Minimum Wage : Directgov - Employment

So you can only do the work if:
1. You are properly self-employed i.e. you can't work under an umbrella company
2. A company director

Nothing wrong with the adverts or the site stating this. (I'm sure the site asks whether people use umbrella companies or not.)

In regards to pissing people off unfortunately some people need to be pissed off as they have too much power and can't control themselves in how they use it. The current phone hacking scandal is an example of this.

[northernladuk]

I suggest you contact the low pay unit (details are on Direct.gov.uk website) and give them examples of the site openly breaking the law.

if you want to piss off everyone that is happy to advertise this work and those that are happy to take it for whatever their personal reasons are. It works for a reason.

Just as a point aside I wasn't aware you were advertising for employment which is covered but instead they want a piece of work doing which in on a contract basis so not covered by minimum wage (as it isn't a wage)????

[SueEllen]

Now with respected to minimum wage, I understand that the contractor status is often rightly judged to be nonsense and they'll be treated as an employee in law.

So why the hell is a UK company advertising these positions within the UK below minimum wage and getting away with it?

They will argue that as they are virtual, their market is anywhere in the world.

However a solicitor I know has recently argued that this won't work about a different website.

I suggest you contact the low pay unit (details are on Direct.gov.uk website) and give them examples of the site openly breaking the law.

[adubya]

Would be worth getting the gig and producing an app which in say six months time just showed a swinging phallus on the screen.

[Fred Bloggs]

Because they think they can? You are competing with virtual slave labour.

[lee]

Hello,

I've just found myself so annoyed at something that I've registered on here to ask an open question.

Sometime ago I registered on peopleperhour along with a few other similar sites to see if they were any use. The answer is of course no, I prefer to actually earn a living but I still receive the emails.

This morning I took a look at one of the projects, just because is was near the top of the email with the description "iOS Development". The budget range was £4-£5 per hour. You can see it here, along with some interesting comments, but the project is far from unique Freelance Job - iOS Development - Freelance Work Project

Now unlike Elance and most of the others, PPH is British Ltd company. By their own statistics, around two thirds of their registered contractors are also in the UK, and they are directly promoting the position to them by sending it out in an email, knowing from their registered details that they are also governed by UK law.

Now with respected to minimum wage, I understand that the contractor status is often rightly judged to be nonsense and they'll be treated as an employee in law.

So why the hell is a UK company advertising these positions within the UK below minimum wage and getting away with it?