Speculation on future changes to contract law

[cojak]

The new IR35 is not in law yet..but we are free to speculate.

Then I suggest you speculate future contract law in a separate thread. I will be removing any other posts that confuse matters from this thread.

Edit - posts now move to a separate thread, speculate as much as you want.

[eek]

The new IR35 is not in law yet..but we are free to speculate.

The new IR35 law is announced, the only thing missing is some minor details and confirmation it's going ahead in today's Budget / finance bill.

You are talking about a fundamental change in contract law - one that is just in your mind regarding fairness..

[andydd68]

And we are only interested in the law as it stands today.

The new IR35 is not in law yet..but we are free to speculate.

[lucyclarityumbrella]

I know Lucy won't like this but I think it's only fair that agencies can control who they pay money to when there are so many cowboy fake "umbrella" firms around and it's possible that an agency could end up liable when it wasn't they fault...

I don't have an issue with agency choosing who they want to work with, I do have an issue when they simply refuse to do due diligence on a company, relying on accreditation.

[cojak]

And we are only interested in the law as it stands today.

[eek]

I disagree..I can easily forsee a situation where only giving a small choice of Umbrellas (who will lets not forget become our employers) is deemed unlawful or uncompetitive.

You can disagree but I am telling you the law as it is today - if you have the £100,000+ or so it would take to challenge the expensive legal advice from above please go ahead...

I will actually be on the other side of the battle - I know Lucy won't like this but I think it's only fair that agencies can control who they pay money to when there are so many cowboy fake "umbrella" firms around and it's possible that an agency could end up liable when it wasn't they fault...

[andydd68]

The information we posted above comes from one umbrella firm (no FCSA) double checking things with suitable senior employment lawyers alongside the view point of a senior director of a large agency - Both show to the annoyance of multiple smaller umbrella firms that they can't push things and it's perfectly legal for agencies to say this list or no deal / contract.

The rules won't change no matter how much you want them to...

I disagree..I can easily forsee a situation where only giving a small choice of Umbrellas (who will lets not forget become our employers) is deemed unlawful or uncompetitive.

[eek]

True but it was perfectly legal (as an example) for Microsoft to only supply their own browser..up until it wasnt..

Many believe that "sanity" may consist of a nice kick back or commission...Its early days and its already one of the most posted topics and that obvious lack of competition is worrying, previously the EU have been hot on this....alas...we are waving bye to that option too.

The information we posted above comes from one umbrella firm (no FCSA) double checking things with suitable senior employment lawyers alongside the view point of a senior director of a large agency - Both show to the annoyance of multiple smaller umbrella firms that they can't push things and it's perfectly legal for agencies to say this list or no deal / contract.

The rules won't change no matter how much you want them to...

[andydd68]

Nope, it's perfectly legal (as we discovered last week) and sensible for an agency to have a closed list of umbrellas to choose from - it's convenient for the agency and assuming some sanity was applied when creating the shortlist was created the umbrellas will be tax correct (not using tax compliant as I've seen dodgy umbrellas using that phrase).

True but it was perfectly legal (as an example) for Microsoft to only supply their own browser..up until it wasnt..

Many believe that "sanity" may consist of a nice kick back or commission...Its early days and its already one of the most posted topics and that obvious lack of competition is worrying, previously the EU have been hot on this....alas...we are waving bye to that option too.

[eek]

Sadly legal but if the agency bleats on about not wanting too many companies to deal with, one has to wonder how they coped with paying multiple Ltd Companies...

May I refer you to the last line in my previous comment in this thread

Oh and ask the director of the agency whether they are aware of what the consequences of introducing people to a tax avoidance scheme is (and whether unknowingly doing so would be a valid excuse to HMRC)

Reducing the number of umbrellas being used eliminates some risk

[ladymuck]

Nope, it's perfectly legal (as we discovered last week) and sensible for an agency to have a closed list of umbrellas to choose from - it's convenient for the agency and assuming some sanity was applied when creating the shortlist was created the umbrellas will be tax correct (not using tax compliant as I've seen dodgy umbrellas using that phrase).

Sadly legal but if the agency bleats on about not wanting too many companies to deal with, one has to wonder how they coped with paying multiple Ltd Companies...

[eek]

Surely in future this PSL/Closed shop of Umbrellas to choose from will be deemed unlawful or noncompetitive ? ....and yes it is a mess and another unintended consequence of IR35 that HMRC muppets didnt think of..they just had £ signs in their eyes...think of all those extra contractors paying lots more tax..the reality will be somewhat different !

Nope, it's perfectly legal (as we discovered last week) and sensible for an agency to have a closed list of umbrellas to choose from - it's convenient for the agency and assuming some sanity was applied when creating the shortlist was created the umbrellas will be tax correct (not using tax compliant as I've seen dodgy umbrellas using that phrase).

[andydd68]

Thanks for the input guys. Me and my workmates have been trying to make some progress...but no real progress yet. The agency has point blank refused to consider Clarity as it isn't with Passport. Can we tell the agency that we have the right to choose the umbrella instead of them telling us as most of us would then go with Clarity? We are still being pushed to Umbrellaworx even though I've shown your comments to the consultants there. Some of the guys I work with have decided to use Umbrellaworx as they like the bigger take home but lots of us are more cautious.

Even though FCSA does has negative comments on here we have spoken to a few umbrellas who seemed ok and then one of the guys came across this website www dot savenhsworkers.org/public-articles.html that has put us right off FCSA. The umbrella world seems totally mad to us lot. Isn't the government doing anything about this as they have brought about the IR35 mess?

Surely in future this PSL/Closed shop of Umbrellas to choose from will be deemed unlawful or noncompetitive ? ....and yes it is a mess and another unintended consequence of IR35 that HMRC muppets didnt think of..they just had £ signs in their eyes...think of all those extra contractors paying lots more tax..the reality will be somewhat different !