Reply to: Eaglecliff & Shell - Mandatory 3 week holiday

[NotAllThere]

Nothing you have said bears any relation to contract law.

So what? You're inability to understand your employer's manager's behaviour has nothing to do with contract law. You said "...I do not understand why the manager told my employee not to work over the three weeks...". I've offered a possible explanation.

Relevant to what? Relevant to whom?

Relevant to the purpose of this forum, and, more importantly, relevant to the vast majority of members of this forum.

Isn't it pretentious of you to assume that no one can relate to my post?

Nope. Based on my experience of this forum, it a reasonable assumption for me to make. Isn't it over-weaning arrogance on your part to suggest that I'm being pretentious? Pretentious? Moi?

If you have a contract, you always have a choice. If the client is in breach of the contract you both signed, you have a choice.

The contract stipulates the terms under which it can be revoked or cancelled. Going on holiday is not a condition.

None of this is false. But no-one ever is so stupid to actually post the full contract, all you'll ever get is comments, advice and opinion based on normal experience of being a contractor. What you singularly appear to fail to understand is that your situation is not the normal experience of those who contribute to this site. Because you didn't understand that, and regarded requests for detail as instrusive, and didn't provide relevant details, it took some time for the actual conditions to come out.

In doing so, though you get irritated when respect isn't shown you, you've shown little respect to the moderators and, again more importantly, little respect to the users of this forum.

I don't believe these comments are about the substance of my argument. They appear to be more about trying to save face.

I'm an anonymous poster. I have no "face" to save. Furthermore, the majority of regular contributers to any forum dislike moderators, so it's kind of with the territory that we're thick skinned and don't give much of a toss what anyone else thinks. What you're encountering here is typical forum user behaviour. Argue anything to the nth degree.

OTOH, being a moderator, I can have the final word. Cojak was right. The thread should never have been re-opened. Have a lovely weekend.

[mcltd]

Merry Christmas, indeed

So it's a real fixed term contract after all, happy days for you.

The manager may have been wrong in your case, but in typical normal contractor contracts are very much time and materials, with no guarantee of total days worked. Obviously there is an extreme "zero hours" scenario, but this is uncommon.

There are many of us who have "total days" contracts, but these are usually per year maintenance style contracts.

So you might not understand that, but it is not uncommon in the slightest. You might think we are being bent over, but it actually also protects us from IR35, despite your assertions earlier.

Anyway, Merry Christmas! :-)

Merry Christmas, indeed!

Fixed term contracts, zero hour contracts, total days contracts - it is good to understand the benefits and limitations of them all.

[jmo21]

I do not understand why the manager told my employee not to work over the three weeks. I don't think I will ever know what motivated him. I know that this situation has caused me to lose valuable time working on other pressing matters.
<snip>

HMRC will tell you that it is the working practices that matter above the documentation. This thread shows, perhaps, an overemphasis on the nature of the company structure.

Hopefully, another contractor who finds themselves in a similar predicament will think twice before just accepting the lost earnings.

So it's a real fixed term contract after all, happy days for you.

The manager may have been wrong in your case, but in typical normal contractor contracts are very much time and materials, with no guarantee of total days worked. Obviously there is an extreme "zero hours" scenario, but this is uncommon.

There are many of us who have "total days" contracts, but these are usually per year maintenance style contracts.

So you might not understand that, but it is not uncommon in the slightest. You might think we are being bent over, but it actually also protects us from IR35, despite your assertions earlier.

Anyway, Merry Christmas! :-)

[mcltd]

trying to save face

Oh that's easy. The manager didn't realise that your employer is not a standard contractor - i.e. someone who works for the ltdco they own, or through a brolly - and therefore not on a standard contractor contract.

Nothing you have said bears any relation to contract law.

I don't think your situation is at all relevant. For the reasons above and also that the choice is usually between doing what the client says or being given notice. From what you say, it looks like there was no notice provision for the client (or intermediary) in the contract.

Relevant to what? Relevant to whom? Isn't it pretentious of you to assume that no one can relate to my post?

If you have a contract, you always have a choice. If the client is in breach of the contract you both signed, you have a choice.

The contract stipulates the terms under which it can be revoked or cancelled. Going on holiday is not a condition.

I don't believe these comments are about the substance of my argument. They appear to be more about trying to save face.

[NotAllThere]

...I do not understand why the manager told my employee not to work over the three weeks...

Oh that's easy. The manager didn't realise that your employer is not a standard contractor - i.e. someone who works for the ltdco they own, or through a brolly - and therefore not on a standard contractor contract.

Hopefully, another contractor who finds themselves in a similar predicament will think twice before just accepting the lost earnings.

I don't think your situation is at all relevant. For the reasons above and also that the choice is usually between doing what the client says or being given notice. From what you say, it looks like there was no notice provision for the client (or intermediary) in the contract.

[northernladuk]

How many employees do you have on site not including yourself?

I assume you'd be happy to take this both ways and you and your employees cannot take any holidays for this gig as the days are in the contract.

[mcltd]

the devil is in the detail, indeed

That seems reasonable enough, it would then depend on the wording of the contract, whether it specified the actual days of the week to be worked, or just the number of days to be worked (either per week, or in total over the length of the contract) etc, and if there stipulations on holidays and/or overtime rates.

The devil is in the detail.

I used this exact phrase in an earlier post in this thread. I have now approached a few solicitors about this topic. At least one has read the contract. The contract is only about 15 pages. They concluded that I have a case.

The thing is, there is no case to be heard. Officially, Shell approved all of the days in January that my employee wants to work at Shell. Eaglecliff have confirmed twice today that they received this approval.

I do not understand why the manager told my employee not to work over the three weeks. I don't think I will ever know what motivated him. I know that this situation has caused me to lose valuable time working on other pressing matters.

I would apologise to the forum for taking their time on what is now, apparently, a non issue! However, this idea that clients can randomly pause an ongoing, fixed term, services contract is really important.

So, you moderators can say that I am 'holier than thou'. You can threaten to ban me for raising this issue and pointing out the flaws in telling people they have no chance of recovering the lost revenue, but I am not apologetic at all.

HMRC will tell you that it is the working practices that matter above the documentation. This thread shows, perhaps, an overemphasis on the nature of the company structure.

Hopefully, another contractor who finds themselves in a similar predicament will think twice before just accepting the lost earnings.

[WTFH]

My apologies if I came off as defensive. I had just read a rather off putting message from one of your fellow moderators.

No, I do not expect Shell/Eaglecliff to pay for days that my employees choose not to work for them.

No, I do not expect Shell/Eaglecliff to pay for public holidays.

I expect clients to pay for the days THEY requested in the contract and my employee(s) offer a service; i.e., Monday to Friday for the set period.

That seems reasonable enough, it would then depend on the wording of the contract, whether it specified the actual days of the week to be worked, or just the number of days to be worked (either per week, or in total over the length of the contract) etc, and if there stipulations on holidays and/or overtime rates.

The devil is in the detail.

[NotAllThere]

I expect clients to pay for the days THEY requested in the contract and my employee(s) offer a service; i.e., Monday to Friday for the set period.

... excluding public holidays.

[mcltd]

You seem a tad sensitive about all this.
I was trying to find out what your attitude was - if you are expecting your clients to pay for every day of a fixed term contract, does that include when your employees do not work for them, and does it include public holidays?

My apologies if I came off as defensive. I had just read a rather off putting message from one of your fellow moderators.

No, I do not expect Shell/Eaglecliff to pay for days that my employees choose not to work for them.

No, I do not expect Shell/Eaglecliff to pay for public holidays.

I expect clients to pay for the days THEY requested in the contract and my employee(s) offer a service; i.e., Monday to Friday for the set period.

[WTFH]

I don't think your questions reflect anything I have said. I think they are passive aggressive so I won't respond to them.

You seem a tad sensitive about all this.
I was trying to find out what your attitude was - if you are expecting your clients to pay for every day of a fixed term contract, does that include when your employees do not work for them, and does it include public holidays?

[NotAllThere]

All which is exactly what we told you.

Did he point out it is likely to fail an IR35 check and the contract and working practices will be inside. A point you've time and time again ignored. You can't have your cake and eat it.
.

Why should it come from Shells HR. You aren't employed by them so why would they be emailing you? Best not to call them holidays either as they aren't.

It seems to me that he is the boss of a ltdco, sending one or more of his employees to Shell. IR35 is unlikely to be an issue in that case. The relationship between the supplier and the client in this case is not, it seems, one of the standard contracting ones, hence it is not surprising that a different result was obtained.

I did ask the OP to make it clear what the situation was, but he has failed to do so. Instead he just wanted to grandstand - "see, me right, you wrong", gets annoyed and refuses to answer perfectly legitimate questions.

[mcltd]

moderator response to my request to reopen this thread

Why? To continue to harangue the regulars with your Holier Than Thou attitude?

I see that [X] has reopened your thread, but behave yourself or I will lock it again AND ban you from this forum.

[mcltd]

passive aggressive

So are you invoicing your client for days when your employees aren't working, or are you leaving out the days when they are off?
...or do you not allow your employees to take Christmas day off?

I don't think your questions reflect either anything I have said, or relate to the issue I raised about the client cancelling days listed as billable per the contract. I think they are passive aggressive so I won't respond to them.

[WTFH]

He said that these things always boil down to the specifics in the contracts, but that a contract which specifies a fixed term requires the client to pay for the entire term.

So are you invoicing your client for days when your employees aren't working, or are you leaving out the days when they are off?
...or do you not allow your employees to take Christmas day off?