Reply to: Business travel expenses query

[Lurker101]

Lurker, I didn't think there was any requirement to manage business journeys from home to a place of work, in fact, home to place of work would usually be excluded. Isn't a journey for business is a journey for business regardless of where it began.

https://forums.contractoruk.com/acco...-nutshell.html

Base to a temporary place of work is expensable if you are outside of IR35. But your accountant could have told you that. Oh wait.....

[Old Greg]

But that's the thing that's in my mind - if you move your permanent residence, then I wouldn't have an issue, but where you are moving to a temporary residence for a holiday, then that may be treated differently.

I vaguely remember a thread on here ages ago about a guy who wanted to put flights from Australia on business expenses arguing that he might have an interview to go to, therefore they were work related.

So one of the questions would be "are they wholly for the purposes of work?"
Well, if he's flying to the client site and being based there, not at home, then it would be a bit easier to say yes, they were purely for the purpose of work.
If he's flying to home, staying there, picking up a car then driving to the client's site (for example) for two days, but spending the week, then it could be argued that his business travel was from home to the client, not from holiday to client.

Look at it this way. If you were an employee enjoying two weeks in Benidorm, or wherever it is that permies go on holiday, and your boss begged you to fly back for a client pitch and said they would pay for one flight back from Benidorm Airport and then another flight to Benidorm Airport, would there really be a BIK?

[WTFH]

... if you have a contract in London, but move to Scotland you can still claim travel to London...

But that's the thing that's in my mind - if you move your permanent residence, then I wouldn't have an issue, but where you are moving to a temporary residence for a holiday, then that may be treated differently.

I vaguely remember a thread on here ages ago about a guy who wanted to put flights from Australia on business expenses arguing that he might have an interview to go to, therefore they were work related.

So one of the questions would be "are they wholly for the purposes of work?"
Well, if he's flying to the client site and being based there, not at home, then it would be a bit easier to say yes, they were purely for the purpose of work.
If he's flying to home, staying there, picking up a car then driving to the client's site (for example) for two days, but spending the week, then it could be argued that his business travel was from home to the client, not from holiday to client.

[vwdan]

The OP seems to get on fine without an accountant for day to day purposes but has a one off specific question. And it's quite an interesting one that may be of broader benefit to contractors.

The travel does appear to be wholly and exclusively for business but my gut tells me it's not allowable. I'm just wondering what the gotcha is.

See, perhaps I'm oversimplifying but the fact that the travel wouldn't happen (Assuming that's true) otherwise makes it fairly clear cut to me. I don't see how it matters whether he knew before or not - if you have a contract in London, but move to Scotland you can still claim travel to London.

Personally, I'd expense it for sure.

[Old Greg]

Sorry, based on this post, I'm not going to be able to help you.

You've booked your holiday in full knowledge that meetings need to take place.
You're holiday is maybe 2 weeks, maybe 3, maybe a month.
You haven't specified how long the meetings will go on for, but seem to imply it's 5 days of them
You want to expense flying from your holiday destination home for a few days
You don't think you need an accountant.

The OP seems to get on fine without an accountant for day to day purposes but has a one off specific question. And it's quite an interesting one that may be of broader benefit to contractors.

The travel does appear to be wholly and exclusively for business but my gut tells me it's not allowable. I'm just wondering what the gotcha is.

[WTFH]

I have booked the holiday travel (not really booked a holiday as staying with family. Wife and kids will actually be there for a month, so more of a home from home).

I provide fixed price to clients including all necessary UK travel, so no use consulting them, but I am required by contract to carry out the negotiations, so need to be at the meetings.

As it happens, I know roughly when the meetings will be, but have not arranged the actual meetings yet as it will depends on a selection process to select the people to negotiate with.

Lurker, I didn't think there was any requirement to manage business journeys from home to a place of work, in fact, home to place of work would usually be excluded. Isn't a journey for business is a journey for business regardless of where it began.

I don't use an accountant as I have relatively straight forward company tax affairs (by the time I've raised my 6 or 7 invoices a year and pulled together the necessary stuff that woudl go to an accountant, I have already calculated everything required for quarterly FRS VAT and co. accounts). Advice on small things like this isn't worth the cost. If it is at all likely to attract the wrong interest then it's probably worth avoiding. In any case, I would have thought most accountants wouldn't provide definitive advice on such a matter and their insurance would usually cover reasonable skill and care, so they should advise that it is grey area and the businesses risk to take.

Sorry, based on this post, I'm not going to be able to help you.

You've booked your holiday in full knowledge that meetings need to take place.
You're holiday is maybe 2 weeks, maybe 3, maybe a month.
You haven't specified how long the meetings will go on for, but seem to imply it's 5 days of them
You want to expense flying from your holiday destination home for a few days
You don't think you need an accountant.

[Old Greg]

It would be good to get a view from on of the proper accountants on the forum.

[Kiloh]

I have booked the holiday travel (not really booked a holiday as staying with family. Wife and kids will actually be there for a month, so more of a home from home).

I provide fixed price to clients including all necessary UK travel, so no use consulting them, but I am required by contract to carry out the negotiations, so need to be at the meetings.

As it happens, I know roughly when the meetings will be, but have not arranged the actual meetings yet as it will depends on a selection process to select the people to negotiate with.

Lurker, I didn't think there was any requirement to manage business journeys from home to a place of work, in fact, home to place of work would usually be excluded. Isn't a journey for business is a journey for business regardless of where it began.

I don't use an accountant as I have relatively straight forward company tax affairs (by the time I've raised my 6 or 7 invoices a year and pulled together the necessary stuff that woudl go to an accountant, I have already calculated everything required for quarterly FRS VAT and co. accounts). Advice on small things like this isn't worth the cost. If it is at all likely to attract the wrong interest then it's probably worth avoiding. In any case, I would have thought most accountants wouldn't provide definitive advice on such a matter and their insurance would usually cover reasonable skill and care, so they should advise that it is grey area and the businesses risk to take.

[simes]

IF I had already booked my holiday, advised my client that I wouldn't be available for those weeks and then the client required me to be available, I would require the client to pay for me to travel from my holiday to the meetings.
I would treat that the same as if I was already on holiday and they asked me to come back.

I guess the OP needs to answer a few more questions or maybe speak to his accountant (and tell them the whole story)

I was going to say exactly this. Until I saw it was already said.

But if the client wouldn't pay, and the OP still Wanted of his own volition to return, then I would expense it via my own LtdCo and leave it to the accountant to convince me otherwise.

[Platypus]

Will whether or not it is allowable be a deciding factor in if you will make the trip home? In other words, if it's not allowable, will you decline to make the trip home?

My guess is that you'll make the trip either way. So expense it. It it's ever queried, justify it. If it's deemed not allowed, just say whoops and take appropriate steps to correct it.

[WTFH]

IF I had already booked my holiday, advised my client that I wouldn't be available for those weeks and then the client required me to be available, I would require the client to pay for me to travel from my holiday to the meetings.
I would treat that the same as if I was already on holiday and they asked me to come back.

I guess the OP needs to answer a few more questions or maybe speak to his accountant (and tell them the whole story)

[Old Greg]

Interesting question. If an employer paid for you to fly home and back again, interrupting your holiday, would that really be a BIK?

[Lurker101]

I think it may be frowned upon if it were investigated but it comes down to intent. Travel expenses would normally be from a base (home) to a place of work, not from a holiday destination and if you had prior knowledge of a need to attend the meetings then you would struggle to justify the expense. However if there was a problem with the project\widget\whatever and you had to return to sort it or risk losing business then that would be a different matter. Even then I think the flight home would be the only expensable journey, not getting back to your family.

But ultimately your company, your choice. Ask your accountant.

[WTFH]

Did you already book your holiday before knowing about these meetings?

[HugeWhale]

Hi all,

looking for any opinions on my quandary. I am going on holiday in July. This is nominally for 3 weeks, but I need to come back for a weeks business to conduct negotiations at a client's site. Were it not for the meetings I would not make the trip home, but do you think this would be viewed as 2 separate holidays? I am taking the family on holiday by ferry and they will stay away while I return for business by plane to work Monday to Friday then fly back to continue hols. It is only a 30 minute flight back, but is probably approaching £300 for the return flight, so worth expensing if appropriate.

Any views would be welcome.

Thanks

Your flight back is for business purposes. Your return flight to your holiday destination is purely for holiday purposes is it not?
Anyhow, expense it and let your accountant determine whether it's allowable or not.