Reply to: Contractor v Client Notice Periods

[SueEllen]

I've never seen a contract that includes the actual technologies to be used. The closest is usually something like 'Software Development', 'Systems Development', etc. which are open to vague interpretation. In my case, I just did the best job possible and kept the client onside, when I was offered an extension I raised it and got a rate increase to compensate. But always worth having a notice clause as a back up.

It's up to you to question the contract as agents rarely understand what exactly they are recruiting for.

When you meet the client find out what the scope of the work is, then get a contact number or a business card of one of the people who interviews you.

When the agent gives you a contract with an unspecified schedule, alter it with what you think should be the schedule of work in the contract and pass it on to your reviewer.

If the agent pushes back on the schedule - they are unlikely to if you have the contract reviewed - tell them you will talk to the client to confirm that's the project scope is and immediately do.

[ShandyDrinker]

You need to be careful you are not working to job descriptions then. As a contractor you should have a very detail schedule of work covering the deliverables for that period. That way you can evidence you are on a short term assignment. Have a spec titled Developer with a remit to develop stuff as required is a job description not a contact of service.

You have to take this seriously... It was a key point that cost JLJ's owners dear in the their partial IR35 loss.

IT contractor JLJ in first ever 'split IR35 case' :: Contractor UK

Spot on.

I've never seen a contract that includes the actual technologies to be used. The closest is usually something like 'Software Development', 'Systems Development', etc. which are open to vague interpretation. In my case, I just did the best job possible and kept the client onside, when I was offered an extension I raised it and got a rate increase to compensate. But always worth having a notice clause as a back up.

Even if it's just a change to something like {Technology/Technologies} Software Development Consultancy for {XYZ} Project it is an improvement. Detailing a list of deliverables is even better as it points to a well defined project.

In software development one of the biggest issues I see with both end clients and agencies is that generally they love contractors who have worked on BAU projects with many renewals, most probably on a rolling contract basis rather than contractors who are able to successfully deliver projects in a 3/6/9/12 month timeframe and then move onto something else. The interpretation of multiple projects for different clients over a short period is somehow seen as a negative as the inference appears to be that someone is rubbish rather than they could just be very good at what they do and deliver on time.

[northernladuk]

I've never seen a contract that includes the actual technologies to be used. The closest is usually something like 'Software Development', 'Systems Development', etc. which are open to vague interpretation. In my case, I just did the best job possible and kept the client onside, when I was offered an extension I raised it and got a rate increase to compensate. But always worth having a notice clause as a back up.

You need to be careful you are not working to job descriptions then. As a contractor you should have a very detail schedule of work covering the deliverables for that period. That way you can evidence you are on a short term assignment. Have a spec titled Developer with a remit to develop stuff as required is a job description not a contact of service.

You have to take this seriously... It was a key point that cost JLJ's owners dear in the their partial IR35 loss.

http://www.contractoruk.com/news/001...ir35_case.html

Another Control issue - whether Mr Spencer's work was subject to a 'quality control' process, did not prove to be a determining factor, partly owing to conflicting evidence from the worker and the client.

"Understandable" sympathised the judge but still, "nobody in the company [Allianz] would have had the detailed knowledge of Mr Spencer's field of expertise to judge whether in every respect he was tackling his projects in the best way."

Such a lack of control is "fine" when the worker is providing expert services (judgement point 23) - on a unique project (point 42), but not, explains Ms Cottrell, when "the engager needs work undertaken repeatedly, and when you are working generally within the organisation."

Given that the classic tests of employment status have not changed, and therefore remain as significantly determining as they were before the case, the advisor believes such a work pattern is the "main" warning contractors should heed.

Mr Mason agreed: "For a contractor, the central message being sent by the courts is that if you're going to engage over a long period, then you really need to be able to show that you're engaged on specific projects.

"[To be outside IR35 you can't] just basically get on with whatever work crops up [from the end-user]. Do that and you risk ending up becoming very much part and parcel of their organisation.

[mdw]

In the examples you state above I would suggest that the misrepresentation in of a role constitutes a breach of contract and would be discussing with the client/agency on that basis, irrespective of notice clauses. If you're not doing the work you were brought in to do then in reality there can be no contract. However, this assumes that the contract contains a decent description of services/technologies used in the contract.

I've never seen a contract that includes the actual technologies to be used. The closest is usually something like 'Software Development', 'Systems Development', etc. which are open to vague interpretation. In my case, I just did the best job possible and kept the client onside, when I was offered an extension I raised it and got a rate increase to compensate. But always worth having a notice clause as a back up.

[LondonManc]

In my experience though, if you try this it starts alarm bells ringing for the client. They are bound to ask - why do you want this? Are you planning to bail early?

And like I said, for some clients, its come from higher up, no notice periods for contractors. Slightly inconvenient maybe but for 3 months at a time not a biggie. Just one of those things - if its a big deal for you dont sign up.

It's not always that clear cut though. If you get stiffed with a significant rate cut but have nothing initially to jump to, what should you do? It's meant to be a business to business relationship with the limited company contractors and the client isn't behaving very nicely.

[psychocandy]

I'm currently negotiating my extension based on this point. It's currently weighted 4 weeks to 1 in the clients favour and I've asked for that to be reduced by 50% before I will sign it.

For those stating notice periods are for permies can I ask how you go about terminating it early and breaking your contract without causing issues?

In my role I'm assuming the notice period is there for me to provide ample handover. I can't see them wanting to finish it earlier just because the contractor asked them to..

In my experience though, if you try this it starts alarm bells ringing for the client. They are bound to ask - why do you want this? Are you planning to bail early?

And like I said, for some clients, its come from higher up, no notice periods for contractors. Slightly inconvenient maybe but for 3 months at a time not a biggie. Just one of those things - if its a big deal for you dont sign up.

[WTFH]

Unsure what you mean by the light side comment, I built a team of around 10 at my last place and have plans to do the same again. It's not rocket science...
Agree with the last paragraph whole heartedly , however

I reckon handyandy should put that last paragraph as his signature, maybe more would read it!


As for office politics: Know who signs your timesheets, know who discusses/agrees your contracts and make sure that the people who influence them have no reason to say a bad word against you. All the rest of the office stuff, just stay out of it.

[MrMarkyMark]

Probably not - I've been too busy hiring contractors for the past 6 years so maybe I forgot what it was like on the 'light' side However, I thought my previous 25 years on both sides of the fence might have given me some perspective.

Unsure what you mean by the light side comment, I built a team of around 10 at my last place and have plans to do the same again. It's not rocket science...
Agree with the last paragraph whole heartedly , however

[WTFH]

The last contract I just finished had a 'can be terminated at any time without reason' clause, so the agency/client notice period was redundant anyway.

Step 1: Get this removed from the contract, or get it changed to "without reasonable cause" - which then means the agent has to prove why they did it.
Step 2: Build up a good relationship with the client. When you do that, contract termination periods tend to become moot. You discuss with them honestly and they discuss with you honestly. But you need to have built up that relationship, and you need to act in a professional and courteous manner.

[TheFaQQer]

And I wouldn't be doing 'substitution' before that gets suggested.

There goes one of the three pillars of your IR35 defence, but each to their own.

[handyandy]

Errm..as I said earlier you negotiate first and get it written into your contract, from the outset. That's what a true seasoned professional does.

You don't get it, do you, Handy Andy?

Probably not - I've been too busy hiring contractors for the past 6 years so maybe I forgot what it was like on the 'light' side However, I thought my previous 25 years on both sides of the fence might have given me some perspective.

Interesting thing is most of our contractors (through an agency that gets just a few % as they don;t find the talent for us they just payroll them) have contractual notice periods that are four weeks to us and one week to them - when push comes to shove and either the contractor wants to move on or we have no work it comes down to a grown-up discussion between client and individual so that there is something mutually agreed. Sometimes that means they ask to go quickly and leave in a week if they can close all their deliverables off, other times we tell them 4 or 6 weeks before and they work that period.

The only time I've ever seen someone told to go immediately (or with just a week notice) when they don't want to is when they start banging on about their rights.

Interesting thing is that we often go back to the same pool of people - it's your personal reputation that counts in this game and that means behaving in a business-like, professional and adult way. I see too many people on here saying they are a seasoned contractor 'cos they don't want the office politics or getting dragged into the clients business!

In fact the most valuable contractors I know are the ones who are the most politically astute and have great engagement skills so can help the client make their business better. That has nothing to do with being inside IR35 it has to do with operating as a professional. It just seems to happen that these are the very contractors who have very little bench time and find themselves choosing which gigs they do.

[eazy]

Unequal Termination Notice Period

Standard practice is same notice period from both sides.

I have negotiated an unequal termination notice period for all my contracts for the last 10 Years. In each case, Zero notice period from the client with 1 week/1 month and even a 3 month from Ltd. Convincing clients to reduce the notice period to a minimum for both sides is always difficult, they are amenable to reducing agency/client notice period to zero if required. I have been happy to take the risk of being terminated at zero notice.


No work no Pay is good in terms of IR35, getting paid for a notice period when there is no work is not so great, MOO, financial risk come into play.

[zappakat]

This would be the 4th extension...knowing the client quite well they are not prone to terminating contractors early.

[northernladuk]

For those stating notice periods are for permies can I ask how you go about terminating it early and breaking your contract without causing issues?

As already started you negotiate your way out. It's more around the fact that even though the client has a notice period they can effectively terminate you on the spot by not offering work or claiming your work isn't up to scratch so notice period is a bit pointless. That said its also been pointed out that most clients honour them.

[MrMarkyMark]

To be honest the easy way is to negotiate - if you are being contracted to provide a professional service then no one will want you to be providing it simply because you have to according to the contract. We all know that means a strict work to rule - and who wants that from a professional!

Errm..as I said earlier you negotiate first and get it written into your contract, from the outset. That's what a true seasoned professional does.

You don't get it, do you, Handy Andy?